Jump to content

New guy. Here is my Cat


Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

Regardless of what cam is in there, without adjustable cam gears shouldn't both cams be matched and even in the rear end and any timing adjustments would be done in the ECU instead of mechanically?

ECU sets ignition timing.  Cam timing, which determines when the valves are at full lift in relation to where the piston is in the cylinder, is mechanical.  Call Web Cams on Monday to discuss the numbers you found and see if they can help.  However, given the note in the build sheet about 3 cam combinations, it's possible that the intake is not from them as identified in the ECU.  

 

-John

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 432
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

3 hours ago, sf4018 said:

Season 2 has started 🍿.

 

Thanks for tuning in! 

 

Small update.

 

Appears the broken ear isn't very uncommon. Was likely done while manually maneuvering it during install back in the day. 

 

The strange lobe cutaway is also par for the course and was done on purpose during engineering and balancing. 

 

 

Pending a consult with the WebCamshaft company when they are open Monday. Regardless general course of action at this time will be to Zero out on the exhaust with the metal locking tool, measure the degree of difference from that on the intake, assemble everything at 0 on the notch on both cams, then dial in the measured angle. This should also account for the 5 degree advance noted in the tune for both intake and exhaust. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry I’m late to the game. In the pictures you’ll see the pin that screws into the left side of the block that locks the crankshaft in TDC . Second the flat tool that locks the back of the camshafts. Most importantly, the Shop manual that explains the whole process really well. I read a few pages of a older Burton catalog. It gave me a better understanding of what needed to be done. As John explained very well, you need to find out the specs on those cams.. And then set them up, I’ve never done that.. the big ugly tool is something I made to lock the new cam wheels in place for torquing the bolts tight. Good luck.

6F1ADA23-C072-414B-BAC9-8296BE645812.jpeg

7A9C64DD-665B-43C7-8808-001D3057F5E3.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, S1Steve said:

Sorry I’m late to the game. In the pictures you’ll see the pin that screws into the left side of the block that locks the crankshaft in TDC . Second the flat tool that locks the back of the camshafts. Most importantly, the Shop manual that explains the whole process really well. I read a few pages of a older Burton catalog. It gave me a better understanding of what needed to be done. As John explained very well, you need to find out the specs on those cams.. And then set them up, I’ve never done that.. the big ugly tool is something I made to lock the new cam wheels in place for torquing the bolts tight. Good luck.

6F1ADA23-C072-414B-BAC9-8296BE645812.jpeg

7A9C64DD-665B-43C7-8808-001D3057F5E3.jpeg

 

Hi. Thanks for the manual. 

 

I have the tool already, just didn't expect my motor to be more complicated than just putting both cams aligned with the tool. 

 

Since they are misaligned now I'll have to recreate that after the swap over 

 

 

IMG_20210717_175441055.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Vovchandr not to create more angst, but are those lobes burnished or is that simply oil?  Also, be careful of the aftermarket TDC bolts.  I have two aftermarket versions for the Duratec and one from Ford.  One of those aftermarket bolts is slightly off as confirmed with a dial indicator.  The other two bolts are spot on.

 

-John

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

@Vovchandr not to create more angst, but are those lobes burnished or is that simply oil?  Also, be careful of the aftermarket TDC bolts.  I have two aftermarket versions for the Duratec and one from Ford.  One of those aftermarket bolts is slightly off as confirmed with a dial indicator.  The other two bolts are spot on.

 

-John

 

The dark black marks? Thats burnished? (whatever that means). oil is light brown film you can see in areas. 

 

Working on getting a dial indicator as we speak. Deciding between digital and mechanical. 

 

I'll keep the bolts in mind

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do the dark black streaks wipe off or is the metal discolored?

 

Get a quality dial indicator and holder.  I've had the cheap stuff and discovered there was enough lateral play that readings done on an angle, like when setting cam timing, were not repeatable. 

 

-John

Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

Do the dark black streaks wipe off or is the metal discolored?

 

Get a quality dial indicator and holder.  I've had the cheap stuff and discovered there was enough lateral play that readings done on an angle, like when setting cam timing, were not repeatable. 

 

-John

 

Metal is discolored. Wasn't able to wipe anything off. 

 

Hard to distinguish what is junk and what isn't now-a-days. I just assume that unless I'm paying an extreme premium for misc random items, it all comes from the same place with different labels. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/All-Industrial-Tool-Supply-TR72020/dp/B002YPHT76/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=tdc+dial+gauge&qid=1626559515&s=industrial&sr=1-5

 

?

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

 

Metal is discolored. Wasn't able to wipe anything off. 

 

 

Burnishing is wear.  If it appears on the camshaft surface then it will be worse on the tappet surfaces (for the Zetec) as they are usually softer metal.  Interestingly the burnish marks are not even across the face so that tells me something was not evenly aligned or machined correctly.  When you have disassembled completely you will be able to do a proper close inspection of the marks and see if any surface pitting exists on the camshaft (which would not be a good thing).  

 

I would expect the tappets will need replacing if that truly is burnishing on the camshaft.   

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Croc said:

 

Burnishing is wear.  If it appears on the camshaft surface then it will be worse on the tappet surfaces (for the Zetec) as they are usually softer metal.  Interestingly the burnish marks are not even across the face so that tells me something was not evenly aligned or machined correctly.  When you have disassembled completely you will be able to do a proper close inspection of the marks and see if any surface pitting exists on the camshaft (which would not be a good thing).  

 

I would expect the tappets will need replacing if that truly is burnishing on the camshaft.   

 

I see. For what it's worth the cams are smooth to finger/nail. Not sure if metal can be discolored without damage however. 

 

 

IMG_20210718_122818447.jpg

 

IMG_20210718_122759204_HDR.jpg

 

IMG_20210718_122725879.jpg

 

IMG_20210718_122720978.jpg

 

IMG_20210718_122705098.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

The third picture 2 posts ago looks like something inbedded in you profile. It looks like a piece of metal. 

 

Graham

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

IMG_20210718_122725879.jpg

 

@fastg I think you mean this photo.  Is that a reflection/optical illusion or is the top of that lobe damaged?

 

-John

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the light and reflections are playing tricks on you guys. 

 

There is no obvious or marring other than the broken ear me mentioned earlier. Everything appears more or less staining. Nothing I can catch with a finger nail 

 

The lobes are very shiny where they make contact and there are dull spots in the vicinity

 

 

IMG_20210718_185903139_HDR.jpg

 

IMG_20210718_190229585.jpg

 

IMG_20210718_185945310.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dave W said:

Check you valve lifter buckets. Do they rotate freely?

Dave w

 

Everything free spins and operates smoothly other than force needed varying slightly as if it's fighting compression and then release, I assume coming from the valve train springs  as the plugs are out. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at the wear pattern on the lobes, they are not consistent from one lobe to another. Typically they appear to be simular for any given cam profile. Could actually be the cam grinder did not do a second spark out on the profile? 

Dave w

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/17/2021 at 9:41 AM, JohnCh said:

Lining up the the slots on the back only works for the stock cams or aftermarket cams that were specifically ground with that setup in mind.  The latter is not a standard (e.g. Kent, who is a major supplier of high spec cams for Zetecs and Duratecs, does not do this).  Based on the ECU information, you have a stock exhaust cam and a Webcam intake.  I've dealt with Webcam before after finding a pair of their cams in a used head.  They keep good records and using the number engraved on the cams were able to find the specs for them even though they were a custom grind done many years earlier.  Find the number, call them, get the specs to understand what you have.  I'd also closely examine the exhaust cam to make sure that ECU notation is correct and they are stock.  

 

A challenge you face is not knowing exactly what the comments on the ECU info page really mean.  Does "advanced intake and exhaust cams 5 degrees" mean 5 degrees from stock cam timing for both sides or from the specs provided by Webcam, or something else?  Was that change based on a recommendation from an engine builder, the shop that supplied the cams, a guess, or established on the dyno?  I'm a little (okay, a lot) anal.  To be safe and to really understand the starting point, I would get a hold of a good quality dial indicator and holder and establish the existing timing before you release the cam belt.  You will need these tools anyway when reinstalling the cams.  Note: if your plan upon reassembly is to have the cam timing optimized on the dyno, then you could take accurate measurements of the slot angle of each cam and use this for reassembly rather than the dial indicator.  It will be safe from the standpoint of valves meeting pistons and should be a good starting point for the dyno operator, provided that person is competent in that area -- that is not the case for all of them.  

 

-John

 

Gave WebCams a call today and it was mildly helpful but not resolute. They asked me if there was anything hand written or any obvious identifiers on the cam (their logo is hand written), and I told them no. Only somewhat unique thing I could see was 260E stamped on the back of the camshaft. She said she has something for that and confirmed that it would be intake only and send me a file on that. 

 

image.thumb.png.cb76d484b23d39775934fda4a84334ee.png

 

She also couldn't confirm anything with certainty but she said if there was a cutout in the back to match the other one then they should be zero'ed out in time of install and then adjusted from there and I could give them a call then with any further questions.

 

So the desired certainty isn't there but it's something.

 

As far as the plan to proceed I'm still pending a dial indicator but also do I need the timing degree wheel to dial in the current camshaft position? 

 

image.png.b7b1babf04bc758bbc5dedc6e89cc060.png

 

 

I see what you mean about uncertainty on the comment for the 5 degree adjustment as well. 

 

 

So far I still have no idea why my cam's don't match position wise. If both were adjusted 5 degrees they should both still match to each other. Unless I jumped timing? That's also quite unlikely. 

 

I'll figure out a way to find the slot angle before proceeding in case I have to recreate this current angle.

 


Wasn't a head gasket fix supposed to be pretty straight forward? 

 

John Travolta Target GIF

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...