Zetec Birkin… earth locations??

[Clarko]

Hi All,

as I have now diagnosed my non-start issue to being emi interference from the starter motor!… I am trying to to double check best practises for earth wires? Where are you guys running your Battery negative wire?

Engine block to chassis? Where? And then do you all have the starter motor as a 3 bolt to just the spacer plate between the Birkin 2000 sump and engine? … any special earthing required from that? Have any of you had issues with Electro Magnetic Interference thrown off by the starter…. I must have done something silly? Or have a starter with a fault?

any thoughts would be much appreciated

🙏

Clark

[MV8]

For the no-start condition, I suggest sharing your process of elimination that resulted in a finding narrowed down to EMI interference from the starter. Include pictures around the engine bay.

 To know what you have, make and share wiring diagrams of your systems.

The engine/trans assy, the chassis, the battery, and any typical/traditional electrical component must all be connected to each other one way or another. Details matter.

[Clarko]

Hi MV8,

thanks for the response:

This is a follow on question from a no-start issue I had 5 years ago… which resulted in me throwing up my hands 5 years ago and giving up on the car…. It had languished under a cover in the garage all that time, until now when I have become re-motivated to get it going…. I will link the old thread in here (if I can figure out how? 

I will also post the photos you have requested.

 

To answer your basic question.. my ecu manufacturer from the UK (Omex had apparently thousands of Zetec running on Omex ecu’s… their latest conclusion is this:

Since I can now get the Crank signal to “sync” properly when bumping it down a hill in second gear (I have not actually tried to start it this way as I need to change 5 year old fuel out of the tank)… but CANNOT get the engine to sync when using the starter, and the software suggests large EMI when starter is used that I therefore have a starter related EMI problem.

This NOT my strong point but I can follow instructions pretty.

The starter motor was new and it’s the second one that I have put in….. making me think is it possible it’s a grounding issue, or the way I am running my grounds which is why I am reaching out to the collective…. And looking to follow  a “ known good” wiring method that works on someone else’s Zetec engined car… obviously a Birkin would be even better…. There is no such thing that I can find of Birkin posting WHERE to attach battery neg to chassis or engine and where to attach engine to chassis etc 🤷🏻‍♂️

Any help would be appreciated… I BELIEVE I am one step closer to get a first start on this car than I was 5 years ago 🤞

[Clarko]

On 7/5/2025 at 2:46 AM, MV8 said:

For the no-start condition, I suggest sharing your process of elimination that resulted in a finding narrowed down to EMI interference from the starter. Include pictures around the engine bay.

 

 To know what you have, make and share wiring diagrams of your systems.

 

The engine/trans assy, the chassis, the battery, and any typical/traditional electrical component must all be connected to each other one way or another. Details matter.

 

 

This is a vid of the earth points I am using:

I am running a 4 gauge wire from battery negative post to a bolt that goes through engine mount, sandwich plate into Birkin bell housing.  I then have another 4 gauge wire running from a bolt into the block to the chassis frame.. all contact points HAVE had powder coat ground off.

 

so am I missing something obvious? I saw an article about Westfield running battery negative to chassis rather than to engine block (and then presumably another strap block to chassis as well?

I saw a Caterham post where they ran BOTH a chassis ground AND an engine ground from Batt negative…

 

I have tried also adding a temporary cable starter motor bolt to batt negative and also a jumper cable from engine bolt to battery negative to see if that made any differences?

But no!

 

Seems silly.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

🙏

Clark

[Clarko]

On 7/5/2025 at 2:46 AM, MV8 said:

For the no-start condition, I suggest sharing your process of elimination that resulted in a finding narrowed down to EMI interference from the starter. Include pictures around the engine bay.

 

 To know what you have, make and share wiring diagrams of your systems.

 

The engine/trans assy, the chassis, the battery, and any typical/traditional electrical component must all be connected to each other one way or another. Details matter.

 

Hi MV8,

Here are the other 2 related threads over the last 2 years to give you the whole picture

🙏

[mrmustang]

Admitting to the fact I've not read all of your fine print, have you pulled the starter and had it checked at your local autoparts store? I'm in the less is more mindset of checking the basics before diving into anything else

Yet, with that said, have you checked and/or replaced your ignition switch ? A loose or corroded wire, or a corroded key cylinder will also create the issues you have described here.

Third, have you had your battery tested? All it takes is one bad plate within to create an issue when trying to start the engine.

 

 

Bill

[Clarko]

42 minutes ago, mrmustang said:

Admitting to the fact I've not read all of your fine print, have you pulled the starter and had it checked at your local autoparts store? I'm in the less is more mindset of checking the basics before diving into anything else

Yet, with that said, have you checked and/or replaced your ignition switch ? A loose or corroded wire, or a corroded key cylinder will also create the issues you have described here.

Third, have you had your battery tested? All it takes is one bad plate within to create an issue when trying to start the engine.

 

 

Bill

Hi Bill,

thank you for the response.

Good point re: the starter… There is a place that I will call on Monday to ask if they can check the starter for Electro magnetic interference… ( it’s actually a new starter.. well 5 years ago it was, but in my new philosophy of leave no stone unturned,) I will try that.

 

Its a brand new battery with tons of juice so that’s not an issue, and of course cranking the engine on the starter is no problem…

it’s just the crank f the motor and getting the crank sensor to allow “sync” to switch on meaning it knows where TDC is and will activate fuel and spark.

 

The ignition key thing is an interesting point which I will think about… I DO have a different set up with the stock ignition key that I could try

👍👍🙏

[mrmustang]

One last item, have you checked the crank sensor itself?

 

 

Bill

[MV8]

I don't think it has anything to do with starter grounding.

Did it run well before in this configuration with the omex and suddenly did not or is this an unfinished build/modification?

The circuit for power to the efi and ignition should be separate from the power when the starter is not engaged.

Have you verified power to the omex while the starter is engaged?

What model Omex?

[MV8]

Just looked at your activity from 2020 about the starter not turning the engine over. Misconfigured spark timing events can prevent the engine from turning over. I can do the same thing with a dstributor engine by turning the distributor too far. 

[MV8]

In your intro post, I see you are the third owner in assembling this and used a painless harness. Since you've not posted it, I guess you don't have any schematics and it ran for six months or so?

[Clarko]

3 hours ago, mrmustang said:

One last item, have you checked the crank sensor itself?

 

 

Bill

Hi Bill yes that works perfectly when bumping the car without starter 👍

[Clarko]

3 hours ago, MV8 said:

In your intro post, I see you are the third owner in assembling this and used a painless harness. Since you've not posted it, I guess you don't have any schematics and it ran for six months or so?

Hi,

Yes third owner of the build… so it’s 22 years old… (I think 2003?) and has never started…

Omex 600 with their Race spec loom, Jenvey  ITBs… I tore out what was left of the Birkin wiring and started fresh with a 26 circuit off-road circuit by Painless… mostly following Slomoves diagram from back in the day… but there are differences which is why I have not posted it….perhaps worth noting that I am not using a relay between ignition key and solenoid… but that did not seem to excite Omex too much.

🤷🏻‍♂️

[Clarko]

3 hours ago, MV8 said:

I don't think it has anything to do with starter grounding.

Did it run well before in this configuration with the omex and suddenly did not or is this an unfinished build/modification?

The circuit for power to the efi and ignition should be separate from the power when the starter is not engaged.

Have you verified power to the omex while the starter is engaged?

What model Omex?

I’ll attach a vid of the bump start Omex screen  when bumping it in 2nd gear.. shows exactly what I would like it to show me, but need it to do this with the starter motor spinning too!

… I do have to pause to think a moment though about your question regarding does everything in the Omex get power when cranking???let me get back to you on that🧐

[Clarko]

3 minutes ago, Clarko said:

I’ll attach a vid of the bump start Omex screen  when bumping it in 2nd gear.. shows exactly what I would like it to show me, but need it to do this with the starter motor spinning too!

… I do have to pause to think a moment though about your question regarding does everything in the Omex get power when cranking???let me get back to you on that🧐

 

[Clarko]

4 hours ago, MV8 said:

I don't think it has anything to do with starter grounding.

Did it run well before in this configuration with the omex and suddenly did not or is this an unfinished build/modification?

The circuit for power to the efi and ignition should be separate from the power when the starter is not engaged.

Have you verified power to the omex while the starter is engaged?

What model Omex?

Here is a video(volume up) of me cranking the car… (spark plugs out) stat sync will not go on …

So I think that means that the ignition switch IS wired correctly as the ecu IS getting feedback on engine revs from the crank sensor?… but cannot sync and determine TDC?

[MV8]

How does your wiring differ from the Omex harness shown? Do you  have a JP1 jumper installed on the Omex ecm? You will need to take it apart to check.

The software must also be configured for the magnetic ford crank sensor. Omex supports hall effect and magnetic so it must be setup properly.

 

Fully charge the battery then perform another video with audio engaging the starter for two or so seconds, plugs installed and without.

[Clarko]

5 hours ago, MV8 said:

How does your wiring differ from the Omex harness shown? Do you  have a JP1 jumper installed on the Omex ecm? You will need to take it apart to check.

The software must also be configured for the magnetic ford crank sensor. Omex supports hall effect and magnetic so it must be setup properly.

 

Fully charge the battery then perform another video with audio engaging the starter for two or so seconds, plugs installed and without.

Yes, exactly as above👍 no lambda sensor or shift light. Ford 36-1… no Hall effect jumper on the board installed as of course it is VR crank sensor.

I will send those two videos 👍

[Clarko]

7 hours ago, MV8 said:

How does your wiring differ from the Omex harness shown? Do you  have a JP1 jumper installed on the Omex ecm? You will need to take it apart to check.

The software must also be configured for the magnetic ford crank sensor. Omex supports hall effect and magnetic so it must be setup properly.

 

Fully charge the battery then perform another video with audio engaging the starter for two or so seconds, plugs installed and without.

OK first vid is clutch in and NO spark plugs(fuel pump relay removed)

[Clarko]

7 hours ago, MV8 said:

How does your wiring differ from the Omex harness shown? Do you  have a JP1 jumper installed on the Omex ecm? You will need to take it apart to check.

The software must also be configured for the magnetic ford crank sensor. Omex supports hall effect and magnetic so it must be setup properly.

 

Fully charge the battery then perform another video with audio engaging the starter for two or so seconds, plugs installed and without.

This second vid is with spark plugs IN