engine squeal

[transalpian]

Greetings again!

 

I have a zx2 engine with a well developed case of belt squeal. Now to be complete, I also saw a puddle of coolant under it last night and tonight (maybe) will look to see if I've lost a water pump.

 

All that said, I'm interested in the squeal elimination kit discussed here often. However, my engine looks different than other images I've seen. Here is mine:

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img208/9228/3qjf.jpg

 

and

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img89/4118/9suu.jpg

 

As you can hopefully see, I only have four pullys on the front; crank, water pump, alternator, and tensioner. Also note that the alternator bracket was custom fabricated by the PO. Also note the "interesting" current mounting system for the belt tensioner.

 

I plan on digging into it to determine the source of the coolant on my floor, replacing the pump if needed, and seeing how the squeal changes.

 

If that doesn't fix my noise issue (the leak could be a hose or seomthing else...), what do I need to do to install the squeal kit?

 

From what I can see, It looks like I'm missing the stock alternator bracket which will be needed to mount the relocated tensioner, I'm missing a pulley near the alternator, and who knows what I'm missing where the new squeal kit pulley mounts.

 

Thoughts?

 

All help will be greatly appreciated!

Edited September 26, 2013 by transalpian

[jlumba81]

Squeal could be coming from the tensioner. Take off the belt and check if the tensioner rolls smoothly.

[slomove]

If I see it right, the belt wraps around the driving crank pulley only about 30-45 degrees. That is not much and will require serious belt tension (not good for the bearings) to avoid squealing in the first place. If you can add an additional idler pulley somewhere to increase the wrap angle you will be better off.

For the math see here:

http://statics.marcks.cc/friction/pdf/belt_friction.pdf

[transalpian]

Good eye. Yes, I'm not too warm and fuzzy about the contact arc on the crank pulley.

 

What would I need to do to rotate the water pump in the opposite direction? Right now, it turns the opposite rotational direction as the main crank pulley. If I move the adjustible idler and re-route the belt, I can pick up more wrap on the crank pulley, water pump pulley, and probably the alternatior pulley in one fell swoop.

 

But then the water pump would be turning in the same rotational direction as the crank pulley. What do I do there?

[transalpian]

Ok, I can find reverse rotation impellers for black top zx3, but nothing specific for my zx2. Any leads?

 

Also, i'm reading that not all zetec water pumps turn in the opposite rotation as the crank. If this is true, maybe i can swap the impeller to the zx2 housing/shaft. Can any zx1/3 owners chime in?

[transalpian]

More research, the 1.8l zetec from an escort has the crank, water pump, and alternator on a single triangular belt, assumingly using the alternator to provide belt tension. Any thoughts?

[Klasik-69]

I just went over to look at my motor which is a Zetec 2.0L and the front of the engine is different appearing than mine. And my belt is routed around the crank by the idler pulley on the left side and around the water pump pulley. Attached are some pictures in the hopes it helps you.

[transalpian]

Last thoughts for now.

 

I've done the risk analysis of the various options and I think I'm leaning toward another solution - remote mounted electric pump.

 

I know I can make it fit. Installation is only plumbing and wiring. I'll need to fab up a cover for the hole the old pump will leave, but that shouldn't be a challenge. The other options of reverse flow impellor or a pump from another engine don't leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling. The electric pump will also make the most simple belt routing - 2 pulleys, crank and alternator. It that squeals, I'm doing something wrong!

 

Anyone tried this? Thoughts in general?

 

Thanks for listening to my problem solving process!

[transalpian]

I just went over to look at my motor which is a Zetec 2.0L and the front of the engine is different appearing than mine. And my belt is routed around the crank by the idler pulley on the left side and around the water pump pulley. Attached are some pictures in the hopes it helps you.

 

I think what you show is the "right" way the belt should be routed. It looks good to me. Unfortunately, the PO of my car did things pretty differently and it looks like a great deal of work and parts would be needed to get it back to that.

 

I appreciate the picture! It shows me I really do have an issue that a simple fix won't solve. I'm really leaning toward the remote electric water pump at this point.

[transalpian]

Here is my plan:

 

Put this pump (EMP/Stewart, 55 gpm, 1.25" in/out, 8A)

 

 

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4574/5ycu.jpg

 

 

in line in my lower radiator hose shown here:

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img208/9228/3qjf.jpg

 

I plan to remote mount the pump controller and wire the power through a relay with the trigger voltage coming from some keyed source.

 

I will remove the existing tensioner/idler pulley, remove the existing mechanical water pump cartridge, and fab up a cover for the hole created by the elimination of the mechanical pump.

 

I will then have the most simple belt routing imaginable - direct from the crank to the alternator. My alternator mounting already gives adjustment for belt tension. I will need to measure for the right belt belt length, but that is the least of my concerns.

 

Other than the possible clearance issues that only time and experimentation will reveal, what issues can anyone else see?

[slomove]

Sounds like a plan.

 

Actually I do have a reverse spinning water pump on my Contour ZX1 from a European Escort. But that won't help you much on a ZX2. Totally different pump setup.

 

If you don't want to do much fab, the electric pump may be an easy out. One thing you may run into, if your alternator mount does not have some flexibility, the belt stretch with heat and time may make it squeal again (especially after starting with high battery recharge load) and require frequent adjustment. A spring loaded idler does have some advantage.

[transalpian]

Good point about the stretch. I prefer simple though, so I'll try it without the idler first and see how it goes. Easy enough to add later if needed.

 

I really think my belt noise was coming from a lot of sources including the water pump and crank pulleys. Just not enough wrap arc. Oh well, that's why I call all new-to-me cars projects.

 

What are your thoughts on the blanking plate? My current thinking is to modify the water pump cartridge by removing the impellor, bearings, and shaft and then plug the "hole". Sounds easier than fabricating a new plate and I know the mating surfaces seal.

[Klasik-69]

I think you've got a great idea mounting the electric water pump. For starters, you've cut down on some wasted horsepower draw on the mechanical pump. Secondly, fixing or replacing the electric water pump looks like a 5 minute job. I'm going to look at this pump myself since I'm looking to boost HP to get more speed. The downside of this is the draw of current will also bring about a little more draw from the alternator to provide the current. Overall, I think electric is more efficient than mechanical and should yield a positive gain. Let us know how it worked out for you.

[transalpian]

Pump was ordered today. Without thinking too much, with the pump no longer in the water jacket, I think I need to remove the thermostat to always have coolant circulating. Thoughts?

[slomove]

What are your thoughts on the blanking plate? My current thinking is to modify the water pump cartridge by removing the impellor, bearings, and shaft and then plug the "hole". Sounds easier than fabricating a new plate and I know the mating surfaces seal.

 

I would try the new electric pump with the old impeller in place. These are very simple centrifugal pumps and it may well be that the impeller has negligible pressure loss (compared to the other channels and orifices in the coolant path) when standing still. But you can indeed toss the thermostat if the pump has an own temp switch or is controlled by the ECU.

[transalpian]

You think like an engineer!

[slomove]

You think like an engineer!

I hope you are aware that engineers on average are wrong 9.473% of the time :willy_nilly:

[DavinceCode10]

Squeal could be arriving from the belt or from the main part. Take off the buckle and examine if the tensioner comes efficiently.

[transalpian]

The pump arrived last night! I had just enough time to hold it in place and sketch a bracket. It looks like it will fit nicely in the lower rad hose. I will be mounting the pump from the cross member that also supports the rack/pinion. The pump is relatively light and the hoses will provide additional lateral support.

 

As I am sometimes absent minded, I plan to get my relay sensing voltage from the ignition circuit. In other words, the pump will run when the key is on. The instructions that came with the pump recommend using a toggle switch, but I fear I'd forget to turn it on!

 

I plan on leaving the existing pump in place (without the pulley and obviously no longer driven by the engine). When I got everything apart, my leak was a loose upper radiator hose, not the pump.

 

On the old configuration, once I got it apart, everything spun quietly (water pump, alternator, and tensioner) so I really must assume the squeal was from the lack of wrap on either the crank or water pump pulleys. The old belt was really tight as it came from the PO, much tighter than I prefer.

 

More to come!

[transalpian]

And while I'm asking, does anybody have any favorite universal radiator hose system? I've seen the Spectre Stainless Steel Flex Hoses, but never used them. Any preferences?