X/Flow Clutch Replacement

[Gearlatch]

I am chasing down a driveline vibration in my 1991 Caterham. This is a 1700cc AX block Ford X/flow with
a Ford T9 5 speed transmission and Sierra Ford De Dion rear. While I have the engine and transmission out, I
have decided to replace the clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing and pilot bearing since it all has
about 11K hard miles on it.

I believe this clutch assembly is original to the car, the clutch disk is an AP unit, 190mm (7.5”) dia., 1” x 23
spline with the part number 47238 on it. The pressure plate is a Borg & Beck curly finger unit with the
number CP2624/1 stenciled on it. I have searched the internet for information or cross references to
these part numbers with no luck.

I contacted Burton Power for suggestions on a replacement clutch and they recommended a stock
Escort mk2 clutch cover and a stock Kent 190mm clutch disk. Burton told me that new clutch covers are
much shorter in height then the old Borg & Beck units but with a cable operated clutch I should be able
to adjust for that. Hum? I would think if a stock clutch was up to the duty Caterham would have used
one.

I saw in the Burton catalog that they offered a higher performance curly finger clutch cover and disk
from Helix Autosport, Part number 60-3329 and 70-1605. I have talked to Helix twice now on the phone
and the applications person says these part number pieces SHOULD work for my Caterham application,
although they are also used on the 1.6 ltr OHC engine and the 1.4 -1.8 ltr “K” series engines. Hum?

Does anyone have a suggestion for correct clutch parts for this application? Has anyone used the Helix
setup and had it fit up ok? The clutch disk is a given since its 190mm with a 1” x 23 spline but I am skeptical of the pressure
plate bolting up correctly and with the release bearing being properly located to not use up all the cable
adjustment.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[IamScotticus]

Ive been putting together the parts for an evetual T-9 conversion to my Xflow.  This is the list of stuff I know so far.

Not sure I agree with Burton on the "standard Escort clutch".

 

On parts, standard 1600 Kent clutch disc is 190mm 7/8" x 20.  A T9 was never fitted to  Kent 1600 in a Ford road car, but on 2ltr and larger engines using larger clutches. 

To adapt the T9 to work with the Kent it only requires two or three things:  (1) A 1" spacer between the case and the bell IF the T9 uses the longer input shaft (1x23), and a small bit of the shaft length may need removal.  (2) A reduced diamter input shaft sleeve the release bearing slides on so std Escort bearings can be used (with a std Kent pressure plate).   (3) A special 190mm 1x23 PPlate, which is an oddity because the 1"x23 discs were larger in diameter for the 2ltr Pintos.   Im not sure what vehicles used a 190mm 1x23 but I've only heard of one.  Thank Burton for keeping them in stock.

Input shaft tips are same dia so pilot/spigot bearing is common to both.

I believe I have seen a CRB spacer on Burton for the takeup issues. 

 

Here is a more typical CC

 

Vibration causes, im only sugessing here...

Trans & engine mounts loose,

warped flywheel, chatter/ slipping from contaminated flywheel surface, uneven bellhousing bolt torque, prop shaft U joints bad.

 

I hope Im helpful here.

Edited March 20, 2023 by IamScotticus

[DavidL]

My car is essentually the same as yours, a 1990 DeDion Caterham with the 1700 SuperSprint X-flow and T9 gearbox.  In September I pulled the engine and gearbox to replace the clutch and a few other things, and after getting quite confused about what were the correct parts, I just bought everything from RedLine in the UK.  I didn't specify part numbers, I just told them the spec of the car, and everything was exactly right.  I bought a clutch disk, pressure pate, throw-out bearing, pilot bearing, some gearbox seals, gaskets, a clutch alignment tool, and even a clutch arm fulcrum pin.  I got a few other bits and pieces from Burton, but RedLine got me what I needed.  I had talked to Dave Bean, who were musing about not being able to supply 71/2" clutches, and Catertham USA didn't have parts either.  So kudos to Chris (I think) at Redline.  Total price was quite reasonable as well despite shipping to California.  I found a local machine shop to reface the flywheel for $40, and I got replacement ARP hi-strength flywheel bolts from Pegasus racing.  The engine went back in the car and it works great.   

 

I can probably find  the part numbers if that would help.

 

Hope that's helpful,  -David

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by DavidL
typos

[MV8]

15 hours ago, Gearlatch said:

I am chasing down a driveline vibration in my 1991 Caterham. This is a 1700cc AX block Ford X/flow with
a Ford T9 5 speed transmission and Sierra Ford De Dion rear. While I have the engine and transmission out, I
have decided to replace the clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing and pilot bearing since it all has
about 11K hard miles on it.

I believe this clutch assembly is original to the car, the clutch disk is an AP unit, 190mm (7.5”) dia., 1” x 23
spline with the part number 47238 on it. The pressure plate is a Borg & Beck curly finger unit with the
number CP2624/1 stenciled on it. I have searched the internet for information or cross references to
these part numbers with no luck.

I contacted Burton Power for suggestions on a replacement clutch and they recommended a stock
Escort mk2 clutch cover and a stock Kent 190mm clutch disk. Burton told me that new clutch covers are
much shorter in height then the old Borg & Beck units but with a cable operated clutch I should be able
to adjust for that. Hum? I would think if a stock clutch was up to the duty Caterham would have used
one.

I saw in the Burton catalog that they offered a higher performance curly finger clutch cover and disk
from Helix Autosport, Part number 60-3329 and 70-1605. I have talked to Helix twice now on the phone
and the applications person says these part number pieces SHOULD work for my Caterham application,
although they are also used on the 1.6 ltr OHC engine and the 1.4 -1.8 ltr “K” series engines. Hum?

Does anyone have a suggestion for correct clutch parts for this application? Has anyone used the Helix
setup and had it fit up ok? The clutch disk is a given since its 190mm with a 1” x 23 spline but I am skeptical of the pressure
plate bolting up correctly and with the release bearing being properly located to not use up all the cable
adjustment.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

That is not a Borg & Beck. It is a raised diaphragm, oem type pressure plate. All around, oem plates and discs are best. Specialty parts (typically to cope with too small of a clutch for the modified output) have tradeoffs. It is not unusual for a single clutch or plate to fit a variety of different oems since the transmission is from a third party also selling to other oems. 

There are two types of pressure plates that are common on mass produced vehicles in the last 60 years or so. They are the lever type and the diaphragm spring type.

The lever type has two basic design groups with three or four rigid levers each. Each lever has its own spring and adjustment. These types are Borg & Beck and "long". The "long" has a larger opening in the center for the appearance of longer levers.

The diaphragm type has two basic design groups with around 20 levers each. The levers are the spring. These types are "flat"(F.D.) and "raised" (R.D.). The "raised" is like the "long", with a greater opening and more exposed levers that also have "curly" tips.

I don't see anything that would cause a driveline vibration. The springs look tight. If the plate is still serviceable and you have doubts about ordering a new plate, I'd consider a new oem type disc like what you have and reinstall with the original plate. Check ring flatness with a flash light and ruler, cover and ring cracks, and any wear. The difference between a new and worn out clutch disc is about .030" so you could clean with acetone, lube the pilot and a tiny amount on the splines (tooth brush out excess) and reassemble what you have.

 

I'd be like to know more about the circumstances surrounding the driveline vibration.

Edited March 20, 2023 by MV8
spelling

[MV8]

If there is an issue with the new plate being thinner, you may need the thrust pad plate or adapter to fit the thrust pad to the normal plate. This would take up some clearance between the release bearing and the plate levers.

 

https://www.burtonpower.com/helix-hd-clutch-cover-7-5in-190mm-with-thrust-pad-60-2490.html

 

https://www.burtonpower.com/adaptor-spacer-clutch-carrier-apc1.html

 

190 (7.5 inch) is tiny. If you need to make changes and are worried about clutch performance, I'd look at fitting  a flywheel/pp/clutch for an 8.5 inch (215.9mm) clutch common  to most domestic 70-90 ford fours. That would be better overall than an aftermarket special plate or clutch.

 

Domestic application for 190x23tx1 clutch is 71-73 1.6L pinto with the optional 23t x 1 trans versus standard 20t x 7/8.

Edited March 20, 2023 by MV8

[IamScotticus]

Starter ring gear!

[MV8]

Ahh. Oh well.

[IamScotticus]

so...

A T9 to 1600 adaptiopn uses:

1600 Kent:

flywheel, pilot, clutch cover, release bearing & arm

 

2000 Pinto:

190/7.5" 1x23 clutch disc (reduced diamter from 8.5")

bellhousing (some grinding to cleaar the starter may be necessary)

T9 box with (a)reduced diamter shaft cover for release bearing)(Burton), (b) if box is the longer shaft V6, a 1" spacer between the box and bell.

 

Remember

(1) the engine threads are Imperial and the bellhousing are metric and you do use both.

(2) use special tacky clutch disc grease on the splines.  PM me i have a few packs. 

(3) have the flywheel surfaced, balanced and checked for runout 

 

Notice  I don't use car model names...it just adds to the confusion. 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by IamScotticus

[Gearlatch]

I apologize if I mislead anyone, the source of my driveline vibration is not in the clutch area. I am just replacing those parts while I have the engine and transmission out. My driveline vibration is most likely driveshaft / U-joint related as it is most pronounced over 90 mph and the severity can be varied by throttle position. Classic U-joint symptom. I do not believe the U-joints were ever lubed in the last 32 years. New U-joints are coming from Caterham and I will have the local driveshaft shop check the shaft for straightness and balance to be sure.

 

DavidL, when was the last time you talked to Chris at Redline? I have purchased items from Redline several times in the past with success and they have been great. I have been trying to reach them since January by email and phone with no luck. That leaves me with Burton who I also have purchased from as my next vendor, which led me down the Helix path. I have had the flywheel resurfaced, ARP bolts from Pegasus are here waiting. 

 

This 7 1/2" clutch combo has survived many an AutoX with no problems so just want to replace with similarly rated components but not low HP Escort parts. 

 

Thanks for everyone's input. I will try Redline one more time. 

[IamScotticus]

Delete

Edited September 14, 2023 by IamScotticus

[DavidL]

My last email exchange with Redline was in January for the purchase of a water pump.  Chris was on that email thread.  The clutch was purchase in August or September.

 

-David

[DavidL]

If it's of any help, here is a screenshot of the Redline invoice, perhaps the part numbers can be of use (the clutch was Helix):

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers,  -David

Edited March 21, 2023 by DavidL

[Gearlatch]

DavidL, thank you for the list and part numbers. Your list confirms the 70-1605 disk and 60-3329 part numbers I picked out of the Helix list in the Burton catalog. I feel much more comfortable ordering these since you had no problems with the installation.

I was able to contact Chris at Redline today finally, he said they had moved but were now back open for business. I have given him my needs; we will see how it goes.

Thanks again.