xromad

Yea, there was one loop on the Wisconsin side where I rode for about 45 minutes, in that time I passed 1 tractor (3 mph) and two scooters (20mph). It was almost spooky and quite religious at times... Oh, and for the first time ever in my life. I hit a bird while riding the bike! Darned thing just swerved right into my face shield, SMACK!. It knocked my head back pretty good, I'd have probably wiped out if I wasn't wearing the helmet. Man, I'm glad I always ride with full protective gear. Brent

Well, it was a fantastic day exploring roads. Here is the general area where I was scouting: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=wabasha,+mn&ie=UTF8&ll=44.357242,-92.013245&spn=1.272536,2.367554&z=9&iwloc=addr&om=1 Basically I explored 20 miles either side of the river from Hastings to Winona. I put just barely under 400miles on the bike today. All I can say is WOW! I was trying to cover a lot of ground so I didn't stop to take a lot of photos. I could have wore the camera out if I had taken a picture of every wonderful sight along the way. Here are some photos. http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12233&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12236&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12238&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12240&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12242&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12244&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12250&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12252&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12256&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12258&g2_serialNumber=1 Tuesday I will start looking for a hotel and breakfast place for the initial meeting. I can't wait to get my Sevin out on these roads.:hurray: Brent

Going to scout more roads tomorrow. I'll be taking the motorcycle and the camera this time.

Well, I'll be durned. I just assumed all sevens had the behavior. My bad. Tell you what, I"m going to quit commenting until I get a chance to break all the scales out and set it up again. That way I'll have real numbers to discuss. I can not find the sheet back from when I set it up last time. This way we will also have real numbers for the scales, repeatability, standard deviation, etc... I still think bathroom scales are fully capable of being accurate enough for the needs of many seven owners. However, I think we can all agree that careful attention to procedure and an understanding of exactly what the measurements mean is vital to getting the best results.

Hi Bernie, I agree completely with the theory behind what you said, and behind the articles that you indicated. Excelent articles, Thanks! When I set mine up, I was looking at Carrol Smith's books. So the confusion is probably more a matter my poor wording than a misunderstanding of the cornerweighting theory. I also agree with the "wedge" analysis of what I did to my car by making the front wheels have the same weight with my weight in the drivers seat. But I don't agree with the reason why. The roundy-rounds set up a wedge to gain an advantage in one direction cornering. I set up a wedge for almost exactly the opposite reason: Improved Braking. I have tried making the diagonals 50% twice. Both times there was a major problem. Not because it corners poorly, but because it then severely compromises my front brakes. When I set the cross weights to 50% with my weight in the drivers seat, the right front tire winds up carrying significantly less weight than the left front. This results in my right front tire locking up considerably sooner than any of my other tires. This happens under even moderate braking. My analysis of this was that my car transfers relatively little weight (compared to the sedans talked about in those articles). They can get away with one front tire being relatively light (and 50% cross weights) because they transfer a lot of weight when they hit the brakes. They also aren't puting almost the entire drivers weight right beside the left rear tire. I felt that I confirmed this analysis (and proved that it wasn't a braking issue by setting the two front weights the same and the braking problem went away). So, I probably Should have made my original post a little more clear. This is the compromise I have found that sacrifices some (left turn/right turn) cornering balance for a huge gain in braking. This is also based on the fact that I don't want to have to add a considerable amount of balast in order to get good diagonals without causing this issue. Not until I learn to drive a heck of a lot better and then go to Nationals... :-) I do learn more every time I go through the exercise though and I plan to do it all again very soon. Maybe I'll discover I was doing something realy stupid and I won't need the compromise anymore. I'm going to redo my scale setup to incorporate the good ideas I see used by Davemk1.

Yes, I do set them down. Not to the bottom, but to the first setting above softest.

My relatively accurate readings were probably helped somewhat by the fact that I didn't remove the car from the scales between weighings. 1. I set it up once. 2. I bounced the corners until I felt I had a repeatable pattern 3. I adjusted the coil-overs 4. I bounced the corners according to the pattern 5. I repeated 3 and 4 until I was happy with the results. Brent

Wow, Very nice! I also used target lines and blocks (but not v blocks) under my 2X6 pads. I hadn't thought of the second pad and V to allow for camber. I just used 2 scales. However, I did also use a second perpendicular line to make sure everything was centered as close as possible in two dimensions. http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12224&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12226&g2_serialNumber=1 http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12228&g2_serialNumber=1

Hi Bob, :seeya: I'll amend my above statement to add this.... For a professional (or national level amateur) racer who has the budget to afford them, the means to meaningfully affect the actual weights, and the skill to obtain repeatable results on the track: Sure, buy the best set of scales you can afford. If you use them correctly, I guarantee they will help you go faster and win more races. :thumbs: However, Here are my caveats: Remember I wasn't going for balanced corner weights, I was going for balanced braking on a car whos actual corner weights I had very little control over. 1. There are ways to do it very very accurately without using a single scale, digital or otherwise, balance bars come to mind...No idea what the weight is, but guaranteed that everything is exacly balanced.... 2. If I rememember correctly, by bouncing my car a repeated number of times per corner in a repeated pattern, to settle in the springs, I was able to get a minimum variation of around 6 pounds per corner. Which is about 2% of the total weight on that wheel (assuming about 375 lbs per wheel). I then averaged out 3 repeated measurements (bouncing inbetween) to take my reading after each change. 3. Corner weighting is a static process. Race car driving is a dynamic process: Accelerating, Braking, turning, bouncing, heating, consuming fuel, sloshing fuel, tire wear, size of lunch, etc.... #3 is Obvious, but it leads to the next series of questions, for which I don't have an answer. (Maybe someone on the forum does).. 4. Does +-1 grain (1.00000 Grain = 0.00014 Pounds) accuracy really buy you a repeatable change in lap time? 5. Does +-1 Pound accuracy really buy you a repeatable change in lap time? 6. Does +-10 pound accuracy really buy a repeatable change in lap time? At some point the answer is an obvious yes. That much weight has a proveable change. But where? So many other dynamic factors are involved in a moving car that I suspect it takes a surprisingly large number to make a repeatable change... Remember, by repeatable change, I'm not saying "It felt loose" or even saying "all the other race teams are using that level of accuracy", I'm saying, play with the weight behind the drivers back and measure his times, then prove statisticly that he is slower. Better yet, do it with 100 drivers and proove they are all slower. So, after all that, the real question is: Michael Schumacher notwithstanding, how much accuracy is realy meaningful? 7. "readings are not repeatable. That means that they are not accurate." Need to be careful with this one. Statistics and an understanding of accuracy vs precision come into play here. "My god, the statistics...." or "Lies, Dambed Lies and Statistics".... I don't want to go into statistics right now, I'd have to break out all my college books and relearn most of it. But, as far as accuracy and precision goes: Precision vs Accuracy- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy I just went out to my garage and used all 8 of my scales. I tested zeroing the scale and then placing a 30Lb weight (excercise weight, best standard I have at the moment) on the scale in as close to the same position each time as possible. I tried it 10 times on each scale. In 8

Ok, I'll piss in the wind here and see what gets wet.... Concerning Scales and corner weighting: You do not need $1500 worth of scales to do corner weighting on a Seven. Here is my take: you can do one of two things: 1. Ignore corner weights and concentrate on other things like balancing your brakes/etc. a. Unless you are willing to either do massive re-arrangement of components, or add uncecessary weight you probably have little or no control over what your corner weights are. You can jack your diagonals to redistribute some of the weight, but you can't actually change the weights themselves. b. Unless you are driving in a class where you NEED to add weight you probably are not benefited by adding weight just to balance the corners. c. Here is the real sticker. Unless you are really balancing the weight by moving the weight around (not just jacking the suspension) you can actually introduce some very BAD behavior to your car. Example: if you try to match the diagonals (like is taught in some books) you can actually cause one of your front tires to have considerably less weight on it. Our cars transfer little weight under braking (compared to a normal sedan), so this can result in you locking that tire even in mild braking. Bad braking severely compromises your ability to go fast.... 2. Go ahead and do the weights but without $1500 worth of equipment. a. My car weighs ~1500lbs with me in it. I use bathroom scales with wood ramps across pairs of scales. I.E. 2 scales per tire and one 2X6 that the tire sits on and distributes the load to both scales. 1500lbs / 8scales = 187.5 lbs per scale. That weight is easily within the limit of standard (cheap) bathroom scales. I went down to Wal-Mart and found the scales on sale for $10 each. Remember, the weight for that tire/corner is the sum of the weights of the two scales that it is sitting on. b. If I were going to go to nationals I would have to add weight to my car to meet minimums (I refuse to do it for local events). So, I would then add weight in a way that balances all four corners without any spring jacking. c. But since I am NOT going to nationals. What I did was use spring jacking to make sure both my front tires had equal weight and that they both locked up at the same time under EXTREME braking. I then ignored my rear weights and just set the front/rear brake balance so that under EXTREME braking the fronts lock up just slightly before either of the rear brakes.

I posted a trip report from this weekend's scouting trip. You can find it here: http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=1294 Brent

Ok, we did our first scouting run today. Sat, 25 Aug 07. Wow. We had a blast! I'll bring up the flooded areas first, since they are of greatest concern. We only went down as far as Winona before we crossed over to the Wisconsin side and headed back north so I can't report on anything further south. I don't want to belittle the plight of the people who's homes were destroyed. There really are fairly large sections where the floods ravaged the countryside. However, We were able to drive around the area quite well and most businesses were both open and thriving. Even 1/4 mile out of the flooded area and you can't tell that anything ever happened. 90% of what we drove through, around Winona, showed little or no damage. I'm not concerned. In fact we got a kick out of the Frat parties that were going on at Winona State and we also got a kick out of watching the Football team getting ready for something (not sure what, but they were all goofing off, standing outside some building). The sections were the damage occured were lined with cars, thousands of people helping clean up and helping get everyone back on their feet. I'd bet that the hotels are packed for the next few weekends. But, I'm sure that we would be able to have a weekend blat there with no trouble. Especailly if we aim for the later date. Here's the facts: * We drove the truck. We were expecting a long day and potentially bad roads. * Even in the truck we had a wonderful time driving around the back roads on both sides of the border (Minnesota and Wisconsin). * One of the real challenges with the seven will be getting half way down a new road (not the ones I've already scouted) and suddenly finding it turn into dirt. Makes for a nice little maze game. Turn around and find an alternate route....try again.... :-) * We found several very nice driving loops on the Minnesota side. * We found several more nice driving loops on the Wisconsin side. * The roads that we explored would be enough to last at least a whole day if we take our time and stop at scenic areas, take photos, etc. * The roads that are on the map and look excellent would be at least enough for two or three days. * We found several very nice looking local resturants along the way. Only ate at one. * We left the camera at the house.... DRAT! Sorry, no photos. * We enjoyed Winona. * We enjoyed Pepin. * We enjoyed Red Wing. Would make an excellent alternative location if hotels in Winona are still full. * Drove around Wabasha looking for Slipperys Bar (from the movie "Grumpy old Men"). Looking at a map now, I realize why we didn't find it. We were looking in the wrong area. I'm thinking that we should firm up the date. No one has come forward with alternate suggestions. So, let's aim for the later date mentioned in my post. (Sep 22-23) It gives the people down there a maximum amount of time to recover (and hotels to free up). Hopefully, It also pushes us towards the beginning of the fall colors. We can hold the following weekend (Sep 29-30) as backup in case of rain. So far I've had three couples say they are interested, but no firm commitments. So, hopefully with the above information, more can chime in. I'll check on group rates at hotels and firm up locations as soon as I have a better feel for how many will come play. Brent StalkerV6 #20

Yea, I read it. Kind of what I expected. :_deadhorse: Atoms are very nice cars. Very quick and very competent. But like every other car out there, they need to be sorted before they achieve maximum potential. Sevens are also very nice, quick, competent cars, and when sorted are DEVASTATINGLY fast. If you are going to run against a well sorted Seven you had better be taking it seriously, or the Seven is going to eat your lunch. Keith's car was sorted, the atoms were not. Brent

Thanks! :flag: Great information! My wife and I will take a big map and run down to check things out this weekend. Part of my looking around over the next couple of weekends will be to estimate what condition things will be in about a month from now. If those towns are too hard hit, we can always shift our destination either upstream or away from the river and there will still be lots of beautiful roads in "Alphabet Land". (Inside joke, Wisconsin rural roads are all named with letters, A, B, C, etc....) Brent StalkerV6 #20

Drew, it would be fantastic if you could join us for the blat in Sep. Brent

Here is the Wheels and Wings info: http://www.motorbooks.com/Store/CustomPage_7274.ncm I'm sure the group will be getting together to to over there on Saturday Morning. We usually gather at Phil's house and then drive over together. Brent

I posted this in the Great Lakes Forum, but will repost here. I will be posting more details as I get a chance to scout the area. My wife and I are planning a weekend blat. Fall is coming fast and there won't be many warm weekends left. Dates: Sep 15-16 or Sep 22-23 (if you are interested, please indicate your preferred date) Who: I expect to primarily draw from Minnesota, Wisconsin, and northern Illinois. But, all are welcome. Location: The Southeast Corner of Minnesota (Between Hastings and the Iowa border) is truely beautiful. It has often been compared to the Rhine River in Germany. A map showing the indicated area: http://tinyurl.com/3cmye2. There are also a number of very nice drives in the area that would be fun to explore. Some on the Wisconsin side, some on the Minnesota side. Hotel: Not sure yet, but probably in Winona. My wife and I intend to drive down there this coming weekend to see what the area looks like. http://www.visitwinona.com/ Must be a club member. For those who are not memebers, $20 annual dues will be payable when you arrive. This membership primarily covers the cost of insurance. Cost: You pay your own way. Format: This will be a USA7s club sanctioned event. However, we want to keep everything as low-key as possible, maximum fun, minimum formality. The intent is to arrive either Friday evening, or Saturday Morning (I will be there Friday evening). Saturday morning everyone will meet at a local place for Breakfast. At breakfast we can do Introductions and make plans for the day. In the evening we could meet for dinner and drinks at a local place. Sunday morning we would do a similar schedule, breakfast and morning fun. However, we would like to do a pot-luck picknick on Sunday afternoon. After the picknick everyone can relax, say goodbyes and make their way home. Again, if you are interested, please post your preferred dates. Brent StalkerV6 #20 Minneapolis, MN Please feel free to PM me if you want my phone number.

Hello fellow Seven enthusiasts, My wife and I are planning a weekend blat. The fall is coming fast and there won't be many warm weekends left. Dates: Sep 15-16 or Sep 22-23 (if you are interested, please indicate your preferred date) Who: I expect to primarily draw from Minnesota, Wisconsin, and northern Illinois. But, all are welcome. Location: The Southeast Corner of Minnesota (Between Hastings and the Iowa border) is truely beautiful. It has often been compared to the Rhine River in Germany. A map showing the indicated area: http://tinyurl.com/3cmye2. There are also a number of very nice drives in the area that would be fun to explore. Some on the Wisconsin side, some on the Minnesota side. Hotel: Not sure yet, but probably in Winona. My wife and I intend to drive down there this coming weekend to see what the area looks like. Must be a club member. For those who are not memebers, $20 annual dues will be payable when you arrive. this membership primarily covers the cost of insurance. Cost: You pay your own way. Format: This will be a USA7s club sanctioned event. However, we want to keep everything as low-key as possible, maximum fun, minimum formality. The intent is to arrive either Friday evening, or Saturday Morning (I will be there Friday evening). Saturday morning everyone will meet at a local place for Breakfast. At breakfast we can do Introductions and make plans for the day. In the evening we could meet for dinner and drinks at a local place. Sunday morning we would do a similar schedule, breakfast and morning fun. However, we would like to do a pot-luck picknick on Sunday afternoon. After the picknick everyone can relax, say goodbyes and make their way home. Again, if you are interested, please post your preferred dates. Brent StalkerV6 #20 Minneapolis, MN Please feel free to PM me if you want my phone number.

Pat

Dennis Brunton owns that car. http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=11782 http://www.bruntonauto.com/ambush07/group1.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/biz6/stalkerv6/crank.jpg Brent

No, not volunteering........considering........ Brent

Oh, ok. Sorry Russ! :flag: Al, did anyone step up for this region? Brent

Who is the coordinator for the "Great Lakes" region? Is it Russ? Brent StalkerV6 #20

My wife and I have been going out on Saturday morning Breakfast Blats every weekend since 7/7/7. She has realy taken a liking to the car and to the Breakfast-Blat idea in general. This past weekend we stuffed a pillow behind her butt and she drove to breakfast and back. She realy liked driving the car and now wants me to finish the adjustable seat and wants to sign up for the local Autocross School next spring. In fact, her love of the car is now so bad, she has layed claim to my Stalker. She wants me to build myself a second car, a "Super Stalker", ....poor me!:cry: ....... God, I love that woman. :cheers: Brent StalkerV6 #20 http://www.stalkerv6gallery.com

Congratulations! As a Stalker Owner, I can assure you that you will be happy with your car. Lots of work ahead of you, but much satisfaction when you have it done. I know there are a couple near Dallas. All the seven owners I have met have been FANTASTIC people. I look forward to meeting you on the Stalker Forum and hopefully seeing you in person at a future Stalker Ambush. Brent S StalkerV6 #20