ECU mapping and engine tuning

[1turbofocus]

1 hour ago, fastg said:

When picking a ECU the first question should be what can I get tuned locally. Most of you guys are running Ford engines, so just about any ECU will work and I am sure you can get a harness. But that is not your problem, you have what you have. Unless you are on a spec class race series I have never played with cam timing, so dismiss that. You have a working map so use that ignition timing, You just need a injection tune, you have a base tune and you can data log. There are some good phone apps that will measure performance with very good accuracy, you might need to add an external GPS sensor to get the best results, I use the Garmin GLO. This will allow you to match performance to the data log. This is time consuming and can be scary/fun because you will need it do full gear pulls on the street. The 1:1 ration gear is the best, 4th on a 5 speed and 5th on a 6 speed is the norm, you can use a lower gear if the speeds are getting to high, just use the same gear all the time. You will need a nice quite road:) With a little effort you will get it running well. 

 

Graham 

How will he know if " You have a working map so use that ignition timing, " that Timing Table is safe and he has no Spk Knock / Detonition ? What works on one engine rarely is safe for another , If he was on a Dyno he could check the timing by what the engine wants , I have tested many of those apps and there is no way I would trust my Engine to them , The Fueling is easy you want 12.8 WOT A/F a good A/F Guage will show this , I like the AEM 30-4110 cheap , easy to use

 

Tom

[JohnCh]

There is a lot of info here and I'm not 100% certain I follow the issue you're chasing given the talk of tuners and midrange lean misfires.  Is the following correct or did I miss something from a post above?

• You car worked fine with the loaded map for years.  Let's call this your baseline map
• You had an issue with the WBO2 so replaced it and some wiring, after which the map switched to another map loaded into the ECU (we'll call it the starter map) and your problems began.

Is the above correct?  If so, is the goal to simply get the baseline map to operate as the default and have the working WBO2 for either closed loop mode or data logging?  Did you make changes to that map while troubleshooting or is it unchanged from the past?  Based on the answers to the above, I may have some suggestions based on my experience with the Emerald.

 

 

[Tempesto]

1 hour ago, JohnCh said:

There is a lot of info here and I'm not 100% certain I follow the issue you're chasing given the talk of tuners and midrange lean misfires.  Is the following correct or did I miss something from a post above?

• You car worked fine with the loaded map for years.  Let's call this your baseline map
• You had an issue with the WBO2 so replaced it and some wiring, after which the map switched to another map loaded into the ECU (we'll call it the starter map) and your problems began.

Is the above correct?  If so, is the goal to simply get the baseline map to operate as the default and have the working WBO2 for either closed loop mode or data logging?  Did you make changes to that map while troubleshooting or is it unchanged from the past?  Based on the answers to the above, I may have some suggestions based on my experience with the Emerald.

 

 

That's close. after a day at the track I decided to finally repair the hot wire connection on the starter, while doing this I bumped the "box" that the o2 sensor probe plugs into the plug broke. The manufacturer said is was a design flaw the device was 20 y/o time for a new one so I went from an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 to the new and improved LC-2. The wiring for the new o2 was "simplified" doing away with a couple of ground, wires both o2's were wideband. The Emerald uses a grounding scheme on a couple of it's ports so that opening the switch gives 0 voltage and the ecu reads map 1 and if the switch is closed it reads more that 5 volts and switches to map 3, you can add a third pole and a resistor and the ecu will read that voltage and switch to map 2, sounds complicated but easy once you get it. Somehow it jumped maps to the original startup map for a 1.8 Zetec stocker I found once I learned how to access the ecu and see whats going on and almost understand it. I'm not big on messing with things I don't understand but I had to see. I've rewired the o2 portion of the ecu wiring and everything functions. I did not make changes to the "baseline map" Once I figured out what I believed had happened I set about trying to reverse everything. I did make a copy of the "baseline map" and adjusted the fueling richer according to other mapping I had looked at. But like 1turbofocus says"How will I know" what I have without that yardstick

[Tempesto]

2 hours ago, JohnCh said:

There is a lot of info here and I'm not 100% certain I follow the issue you're chasing given the talk of tuners and midrange lean misfires.  Is the following correct or did I miss something from a post above?

• You car worked fine with the loaded map for years.  Let's call this your baseline map
• You had an issue with the WBO2 so replaced it and some wiring, after which the map switched to another map loaded into the ECU (we'll call it the starter map) and your problems began.

Is the above correct?  If so, is the goal to simply get the baseline map to operate as the default and have the working WBO2 for either closed loop mode or data logging?  Did you make changes to that map while troubleshooting or is it unchanged from the past?  Based on the answers to the above, I may have some suggestions based on my experience with the Emerald.

 

 

Oh and any input will be greatly appreciated based on my inexperience with the Emerald. Thanks

[JohnCh]

1 hour ago, Tempesto said:

I did make a copy of the "baseline map" and adjusted the fueling richer according to other mapping I had looked at.

Was there something amiss that caused you to make those changes?  If you have the WBO2 working correctly, you can log the AFR, load site, and rpm to identify if anything is off and then address it.  You can also turn on the adaptive mapping, plug in target AFR at each load site and rpm and just drive it.  This should all be covered in the documentation available at Emerald's website.  I can try to answer specific questions if you have them, but I may not know the answer off the top of my head as I haven't had the need to mess with mine for a few years.  

[Tempesto]

1 minute ago, JohnCh said:

Was there something amiss that caused you to make those changes?  If you have the WBO2 working correctly, you can log the AFR, load site, and rpm to identify if anything is off and then address it.  You can also turn on the adaptive mapping, plug in target AFR at each load site and rpm and just drive it.  This should all be covered in the documentation available at Emerald's website.  I can try to answer specific questions if you have them, but I may not know the answer off the top of my head as I haven't had the need to mess with mine for a few years.  

The engine developed what sounded like and acted like a lean misfire condition in the rpm midrange.

I understood some of what you wrote after "changes?" I'm sorry

Yes I have a working WBo2 sensor. So using the Innovate logging software log AFR, load site and rpm to see if the engine/ecu hit the target AFR at any given sector and adjust the afr target up or down to force the actual to meet the target?

Your vocabulary is surpassing mine. I can't even find anything that tells me how to turn on adaptive mapping let alone plug in target AFR??

I asked the tuner guy at the shop I visited to assume I know nothing,  reading a manual even several times does not make me understand I don't have the background or vocabulary as it applies to draw from. Load site WTH is a load site is that where the axis of say a given RPM and TPS might meet and the corresponding cell contains the target AFR? I wish I knew what to ask. 

 

[JohnCh]

Based on your questions, it sounds like you have not read the instruction manuals available at Emerald's site here:  EmeraldM3D.com - Software / Manuals

 

The Emerald K3/K6 Manual v 057 is a good primer and will help you understand the various terms and what the Emerald can do.  It's not written for the expert.  It's written for the average hobbyist.  The Adaptive mapping aspect is covered in the section beginning on page 31.  

 

You want to use the Emerald to log data, not the Innovate.  That simply feeds the AFR to the Emerald and won't tie that into other key parameters available to the ECU.  The Emerald allows you to map multiple channels and its use is covered in the Data Logger Guide on the page linked above. 

 

Load site is a key item to log and is how the software identifies throttle input.  Coupled to RPM, it equates to how much air is being ingested by the engine.  The mapping tables generally have Load Site on left (the rows) and rpm on the top (the columns).  The cells then contain the elements that table maps.  e.g. timing, fueling, AFR.  

[1turbofocus]

I am going to Florida this Month for other Tuning if your close to St Augustine I could take a look ?

 

Tom

[Tempesto]

4 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

Based on your questions, it sounds like you have not read the instruction manuals available at Emerald's site here:  EmeraldM3D.com - Software / Manuals

 

The Emerald K3/K6 Manual v 057 is a good primer and will help you understand the various terms and what the Emerald can do.  It's not written for the expert.  It's written for the average hobbyist.  The Adaptive mapping aspect is covered in the section beginning on page 31.  

 

You want to use the Emerald to log data, not the Innovate.  That simply feeds the AFR to the Emerald and won't tie that into other key parameters available to the ECU.  The Emerald allows you to map multiple channels and its use is covered in the Data Logger Guide on the page linked above. 

 

Load site is a key item to log and is how the software identifies throttle input.  Coupled to RPM, it equates to how much air is being ingested by the engine.  The mapping tables generally have Load Site on left (the rows) and rpm on the top (the columns).  The cells then contain the elements that table maps.  e.g. timing, fueling, AFR.  

No that's actually the problem I have read Emerald K3/K6 v057 cover to cover several times, it hasn't helped. 

Rereading the manual and your description of load site I get it, in my instance it's using the TPS and RPM with AFR filling the cells but it could be ignition timing in a different table.

[Tempesto]

3 minutes ago, 1turbofocus said:

I am going to Florida this Month for other Tuning if your close to St Augustine I could take a look ?

 

Tom

I'm just about 45 minutes from St Augustine, depending on the when and the weather my trailer isn't covered. Hey it may even be running and drivable. Where do you go in St Augustine?

[Tempesto]

1 hour ago, Tempesto said:

No that's actually the problem I have read Emerald K3/K6 v057 cover to cover several times, it hasn't helped. 

Rereading the manual and your description of load site I get it, in my instance it's using the TPS and RPM with AFR filling the cells but it could be ignition timing in a different table.

Wow I have actually learned something, actually quite a bit. Now I have a question if you still have time. My current maps are set up on closed loop, what would or should change if I change the map to adaptive. What should I expect?

Thanks so much for your time and help

[JohnCh]

I don't recall how to turn on adaptive.  I'd need to look at the manual or the software to jog my memory.  The difference between closed loop and adaptive is simply that closed loop makes the changes live and does not store the values.  Adaptive, identifies those live changes and stores them in an AFR corrections table.  At some point you can accept all or some of those changes which in turn updates the map with the revised values.  When you do this, it's a good idea to save the map with a new name so you can always revert to the original if needed. 

 

Another advantage of adaptive mapping is that it gives you a way to safely walk up on a big change when doing initial tuning.  Closed loop and adaptive both have user settable values that limit the amount of allowable change.  This is to prevent a massive erroneous reading that could create an overly rich or lean condition.  As I recall, Emerald sets the default at a pretty conservative value.  Maybe 5%?  Now imagine the cell actually needs a 9% change.  Closed loop won't get you there and will continually limit the change to just 5%.  With adaptive mapping, you can update the base map with that 5% change, then the next time you run the engine, it will identify that additional 4% change needed and enable you to create an updated, accurate map.

[Tempesto]

2 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

I don't recall how to turn on adaptive.  I'd need to look at the manual or the software to jog my memory.  The difference between closed loop and adaptive is simply that closed loop makes the changes live and does not store the values.  Adaptive, identifies those live changes and stores them in an AFR corrections table.  At some point you can accept all or some of those changes which in turn updates the map with the revised values.  When you do this, it's a good idea to save the map with a new name so you can always revert to the original if needed. 

 

Another advantage of adaptive mapping is that it gives you a way to safely walk up on a big change when doing initial tuning.  Closed loop and adaptive both have user settable values that limit the amount of allowable change.  This is to prevent a massive erroneous reading that could create an overly rich or lean condition.  As I recall, Emerald sets the default at a pretty conservative value.  Maybe 5%?  Now imagine the cell actually needs a 9% change.  Closed loop won't get you there and will continually limit the change to just 5%.  With adaptive mapping, you can update the base map with that 5% change, then the next time you run the engine, it will identify that additional 4% change needed and enable you to create an updated, accurate map.

Ok I actually understood all of that and it makes sense. So adaptive identifies and makes the live changes as well as storing the values? or it doesn't make the changes just logs the needed change values? That's why my maps are in closed so they don't require any other user input, FYI I found you change mode by shading a cell or group of and hit the + or - keys to scroll through the modes there isn't a simple on or off like I was looking for

[JohnCh]

57 minutes ago, Tempesto said:

So adaptive identifies and makes the live changes as well as storing the values?

 

Correct.  

 

58 minutes ago, Tempesto said:

FYI I found you change mode by shading a cell or group of and hit the + or - keys to scroll through the modes there isn't a simple on or off like I was looking for

 

No, you are changing the values in those cells. In the Emerald, + adds fuel or timing, and - removes fuel or timing.  To enable adaptive, you need to have values in the lower right section of the tab shown below under "Conditions that enable update of the corrections table".  

 

[Tempesto]

7 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

 

Correct.  

 

 

No, you are changing the values in those cells. In the Emerald, + adds fuel or timing, and - removes fuel or timing.  To enable adaptive, you need to have values in the lower right section of the tab shown below under "Conditions that enable update of the corrections table".  

 

Ok got it,

This is what I was looking at:

The ECU determines the target AFR by reading this table. This target is used by the ECU in closed loop and adaptive feedback modes. The target AFR information is displayed on the Live adjustments screen regardless of the feedback mode and can be a helpful mapping aid even if the closed loop or adaptive modes are not used.

Control mode

Additional controls

• Plus (+) key - cycle cell contents, open loop→closed loop→adaptive

• Minus (-) key - cycle cell contents, open loop←closed loop←adaptive

  The Control mode table has the same speed/load configuration as the main injection table. The feedback mode of each individual cell can be set to open loop, closed loop or adaptive.

  When set to closed loop or adaptive modes the ECU evaluates the closed loop settings before the feedback mode is changed. If the feedback mode does not change as expected you will find that one or more of the conditions on the closed loop settings has not been met.

[JohnCh]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the AFR Corrections table, not the Feedback table.  The trick Emerald showed me for turning on/off closed loop or adaptive at a global level was to set the coolant trigger to a very high value that the engine won't reach in normal operating conditions.  In the screenshot above, that's why it reads 120C.  When using Closed/Adaptive, it is changed to 70C.  

[Tempesto]

2 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the AFR Corrections table, not the Feedback table.  The trick Emerald showed me for turning on/off closed loop or adaptive at a global level was to set the coolant trigger to a very high value that the engine won't reach in normal operating conditions.  In the screenshot above, that's why it reads 120C.  When using Closed/Adaptive, it is changed to 70C.  

 

3 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the AFR Corrections table, not the Feedback table.  The trick Emerald showed me for turning on/off closed loop or adaptive at a global level was to set the coolant trigger to a very high value that the engine won't reach in normal operating conditions.  In the screenshot above, that's why it reads 120C.  When using Closed/Adaptive, it is changed to 70C.  

No, that's how I get in trouble, I thought we were talking about the same thing. I see +- change for the fields in AFR corrections table.

Seems like a global trigger would be more idiot proof. So simply that would stop any corrections

[1turbofocus]

You want to leave it in closed loop , watch the STFT1 and that will tell you how much to change your fueling by and the MAP will tell you where , I can show you all this ,I need to confirm dates for Dec

 

Tom

[Tempesto]

6 hours ago, 1turbofocus said:

You want to leave it in closed loop , watch the STFT1 and that will tell you how much to change your fueling by and the MAP will tell you where , I can show you all this ,I need to confirm dates for Dec

 

Tom

Ok but what is STFT1. 

As far as December I just need to know when your here, I can adjust I don't have a schedule

[Tempesto]

6 hours ago, 1turbofocus said:

You want to leave it in closed loop , watch the STFT1 and that will tell you how much to change your fueling by and the MAP will tell you where , I can show you all this ,I need to confirm dates for Dec

 

Tom

I'm running a Ford Racing head do you have a recommendation for spark plugs. There are several plugs for the Zetec but most vendors sell according to the vin number that I don't have. I understand it has something to do with reach of the plug into the cylinder but have never been able to find anything definitive for the Ford Racing head. I'm currently running Motorcraft Double Platinums, that's what it came to me with. Thanks again