No_6 Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 I am torn between two cars. Seriously. Bigtime. And I could use some sage advice from people who have 'been there, done that." Choice 1: '97 Caterham Classic. Check it out here: http://forsale.unibrain.org/ A great car in a fairly high state of tune. 1600cc X-flow putting out 150hp, lots of nice extras (Quaif LSD, 5 speed, hydraulic clutch). And it is only 3 hours away from where I live. This car would need to run on super, and as you know will require fairly regular maintenance. It has seen a few track days, but I don't think it has been abused. Choice 2: '5 Birkin S3 Dick Brink is selling this one. It has under 1,000 miles on it. Has the adjustable bucket seats, and '03 Zetec motor. And if I fly down to Texas, he has agreed to sell me parts at his cost. Both these cars will need full weathergear, (which will save me approx $300 right there). However, this car will cost me $2500 more. Plus the flight to Texas and the 3 day drive home. About me: somewhat absent minded. Not particularly inclined to fuss over motorized transport, and I tend to put off maintenance. If this were not the case, my Honda probably would have lived longer than 130,000 miles (I burned the head off of it last week by running it low on oil for 6 months). I am sure that I would pay the 'new' car much more attention, but it will be a daily driver (about 4,500 miles a year total). I wouldn't mind learning how to do a lot of stuff myself, but I would rather not spend a LOT of time in the garage. Besides, I rent, so my garage is shared. Have tools and parts laying around is not a good idea unless I don't want to keep those tools and parts. I like the idea that the Birkin has a much higher performance ceiling, with ample (and inexpensive) aftermarket options. It sounds like Dick won't have problems getting parts for me, and the prices will be comperable, if not a little cheaper than Caterham bits. The fact that it will run just fine on regular and will get higher gas mileage than the Cat means my cost of ownership will probably be lower. Also, the Birkin is a bit heavier, slightly more robust which strikes me as being better suited to the crummy roads I have to deal with here in Seattle. But the car is in freakin' Texas. However, I like the 'collectability' of the Caterham, the fact that it has clamshell wings and the more vintage look of the car in general. Plus, those carbs sticking out of the side does something for me. It has been very well maintained is extremely clean, and only has about 7500 miles on it. *sigh* Decisions, decisions. And I need to come to one by tonight. Thanks for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 Well, since I don't own either one, I can't directly help with your question. I can tell you without a doubt that the drive back will be a great opportunity to enjoy the full effect of picking up a new toy - unless you break down http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif Personally I always find it difficult to turn down additional power, so that would be a big determining factor for me. I also find it a relief that I don't have to worry about the "collectability" of my Seven, so I can do whatever I want. If this is going to be driven regularly in all kinds of weather, I suggest you buy the car you would enjoy the most, and not even worry about it being collectible. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pksurveyor Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 I was in the same situation when I decided between a Birkin and a Caterham in 2004. I am lucky that we have both a Birkin and a Caterham dealer in Texas and in the same city. The Birkin is better value for the money but it no longer has an official distributor in the USA. The Caterham is very proud of its heritage and everything costs an arm and leg. I consulted with a friend who is very active in SCCA racing and has seven Lotus. His advise was that the Caterham retains its value a lot better. The Birkin and Caterham are both wonderful fun cars and you probably will not notice much in daily driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al N. Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 I wouldn't worry so much about the official distributorship thing, as Dick and Bernie L. and Woody H. will probably have lines on anything you might need. It's too bad you can't find someone near you with a Birkin, just to see how those cars are finished/trimmed out. If it's the ali/carbon one on Dick's site, I happen to hate those gold wheels. However, I think this may have one of those elusive retro-titles which should allow you to register as a 1967. And the wheels are easily swapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al N. Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 FWIW, if you go to the blog of that Caterham, it sounds a bit leaky to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 Man, if you can get a historic titled car, it will probably save you so many headaches. At least in Maryland, there is no inspection of any type on my car. It is such a relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevet Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 No 6 here's my 0.02 cents worth... my first Caterham was a 1700 crossflow which I uprated to about 145 hp. Flared wings, Webers, classic look. I loved it - great to drive, great sounding engine. My current Cat has the Zetec engine - the cooking version, 147hp, nothing fancy like Al's - and cycle wings. It is probably more similar to the Birkin 'cos of the engine. It doesn't sound as good, but it has bags of torque and has been (so far) maintenance free for 8000 miles except for the usual oil, plug and filter changes which are easy to do. I have never driven a Birkin, but friends who have say it handles slightly less well than the Cat and is slightly less well built. I would stress that information is second hand. I'm sure there are well built examples around. Mazda has made the point about resale. Like you I would be torn. The Caterham will IMHO need more maintenance - it's in a pretty high state of tune for a 1600 - but may hold it's price better than the Birkin. On the other hand the Birkin will probably be easier to maintain and get better mileage. Two things: check with the Calirornia Caterham Club - there's some Birkin owners on there I think and you may be able to look at one closer thean Texas; also, have someone who knows their way around engines have a look at the Caterham if you go that route. Good luck, either way it will be big fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomove Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 I have a Birkin and I am very happy with it. I know a lot of Zetec Caterhams in the area and sure would be very happy with them, either. However, I did not buy a crossflow engine just for reasons of maintenance and upgradability but that is a matter of personal taste. Crossflows are 2 generations back and maybe very original but not necessarily easy to maintain. Zetecs are only one generation back. Given similar junk inside the car the weight is practically the same (I weighed 3 Caterhams and my Birkin in my driveway). When I bought my car 4 years ago for the budget I could buy a run-down Caterham with a worn-out crossflow or my car with 600 miles on the clock and a more powerful Zetec. That was a no-brainer for me. The point of retaining value may actually be more related to the current market situation (interest in sevens, people running out of money or losing jobs) than the brand. I have seen people losing tons of money on very nice Caterhams especially when upgraded beyond factory specs. Both brands have pros and cons that have been discussed in the past. Birkin stock seats are pretty bad and replaced with aftermarket seats often. The front suspension, brakes and pedal/master cyl. assembly are aguably better in a Birkin. The life axle gives a good ride when set up properly with springs and shocks. I never could find a discernable difference to a DeDion (but that is another 10 pages worth of discussion). Workmanship is IMO just as good. Classic Caterham chassis are bronze welded while Birkins are TIG welded but as long as it holds together I don't care. I have not heard of either chassis to fail at the welds. At the end you should not rush your decision and discount cars from far away (I had to transport my car from FL to CA). A Seven purchase is a highly personalized decision and if you did not see and test drive several cars you may end up with a compromised buy. Well, to be honest even the compromise may be great..... Gert pics of my car here: >http://home.earthlink.net/~slomove whoa....I should mention that since I bought it I probably put another $15k into the car in upgrades that I would never get back if I should sell. Fortunately I am not planning to sell anytime soon...... slomove2006-08-29 21:49:57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_6 Posted August 30, 2006 Author Share Posted August 30, 2006 slomove--I checked out your page a few days ago. I was very impressed by your inventiveness. Thanks for your observations on the Birkin. I haven't driven a Cat before, but I have driven a 99 Birkin and was very, very impressed. I even liked the stock seats (though a bit more lateral support would be nice... without the 4-point harness I would slide around in the seat quite a bit). I imagine the 05 would be identical. At this point, I've pretty much made up my mind that the Birkin is the way to go for me, considering my lack of mechanical aptitude, the newness (and availability) of the motor. Here's a link to the car I am looking at if any of y'all are curious: http://www.texasmotorworks7.com/racoca1.html It's the black/aluminum car about 3/4 the way down the page. Let me know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soareyes Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Hi No. 6, I too have a Birkin, and in fact this is my second! I enjoyed my first Birkin for about a year, then started to look into upgrading (it was a very stock car). As luck would have it, another Birkin came up for sale with nearly all the upgrades I was contemplating, and at less cost than to do the upgrades myself (plus I'm no mechanic). I've seen a lot of Caterhams and Birkins, and to me either would be fine to own, so it just comes down what car gives you the most of what you are looking for at a price you are willing to pay. Either way, there is no need to rush into a purchase as it seems to be a buyers market with this type of car, and there are always cars coming onto the market. I looked at the pictures of the Birkin you are considering and noticed a couple things: This car has the newer Birkins seats which are slightly more comfortable that the older style you test drove. There is no heater installed, which is not problem unless you plan to drive in sub-freezing temperatures. All Sevens generate plenty of heat without a heater! It has the spare wheel carrier but no spare wheel/tire. A lot of owners don't bother with the spare anyway, just carry a can of fix-a-flat. I like the classic look of the spare in the back though. If you like the shiny aluminum look, be prepared to polish it several times a year! It is a nice looking car with the carbon fiber and bare aluminum, and definitly mount the carbon fiber dash to go with the fenders if you buy it. Good luck with your decision and feel free to ask more questions. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_6 Posted August 30, 2006 Author Share Posted August 30, 2006 I forgot one very important factor in buying the car... WA state is insane with tax fever, and would tack $2100 to the purchase price, which pretty well blows the car right out of the water. Man, there are things I hate about this state, and that's one of them. BTW, soar, so it doesn't sound like you've had any problems with parts/availability/maintenance. This the case? The car is so simple mechanically, I can't imagine many difficulties. Oh... also, can a Duratec motor be fitted to the Birkin chasis, and if so, how easily/difficult?No_62006-08-30 14:18:32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soareyes Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 So far I haven't had any significant problems. Any questions I've had have been answered by fellow owners on the Yahoo Birkin list, or Woody of MSI, who was the official importer a few years ago and still sells parts. I have no idea how hard it would be to retrofit a Birkin with the Duratec. It would be nice having the exhaust on the passenger side though! Less noise and heat. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirkinBernie Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Hi. I also have a Birkin which I bought in kit form from Dick. I have a bone stock Zetec, including the stock fuel injection. Starts instantly, gets 33mpg, and makes darn near as much horsepower as the highly tuned crossflow. And the whole engine, minus flywheel, was $750 at a junk yard. Including the fuel injection. If you are expecting a low maintanence commuter car, you may be disappointed with a Se7en. These are thinly disguised formula cars with headlights. They take fairly constant tinkering, fixing, tightening and fiddling. Especially if you go for the crossflow. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but please go into this with your eyes open. You are not going to get a Honda - these cars require maintanence if they are going to be safe and reliable. On the other hand, there ain't nothing like it for sheer fun. You would be most welcome at the birkinowner's list: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/birkinowners/ And if you come to Texas, let us know. I live near Dick, there are a few se7ens enthusiasts in the area and we are always looking for an excuse to get together.... Bernie Long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomove Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 It would be nice having the exhaust on the passenger side though! Less noise and heat. Stan Stan, my wife (mostly being passenger) would have a very different opinion on that one http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/smile5.gif I think it would be *possible* to install a Duratec but AFAIK nobody has done it so far in a classic Birkin S3. Modifying one of the diagonal chassis tubes is probably required. But first adopters would have to do a lot of research and machine shop work. The new IRS Birkin (only 1 in the US) is supposedly set up for Duratec. Gert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomove Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 I forgot one very important factor in buying the car... WA state is insane with tax fever, and would tack $2100 to the purchase price, which pretty well blows the car right out of the water. Man, there are things I hate about this state, and that's one of them. Well, California is not much better. When I bought my car I was shocked to see an 8.25% "use tax" when registering. I know many people cheat and state "optimistic" purchase prices here all the time but that is not a good idea for a "Resident Alien". For what it is worth, in my home country Germany used car sales between private parties are not taxed. Does not help me much here, though..... Gert Funny: the DMV inspector asked "what, you paid $15000 for a 35 year old car???" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 the DMV inspector asked "what, you paid $15000 for a 35 year old car???" When I went to register the Rotus (imagine a 1979 model car that nobody ever heard of, that had never been titled), I waited my turn at the DMV, and with my luck, the teller at the counter was a trainee http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/banghead.gif Before you know it, there is a huddle going on behind the counter, and DMV employees are pointing to a pic of a morgan on the wall to tell the supervisor what the car looks like http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif After 10 minutes of this, and a phone call, I figured I was screwed, and had to go in for state inspection. Then the lady looks at me and says you're good to go http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/hurray.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solder_guy Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 In Georgia, all that is required for cars older than 1986 is a Bill of Sale .. which I still need to get from Tim Custer. Rob Mitchell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al N. Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 I'm with Bernie on the "make sure you understand what you are getting" thing. I have to say that if you are sensitive to costs now, you may end up hating the entire experience. While I haven't had anything major go wrong (YET), putting in the ATL Fuel Cell (and running all new A/N lines and fittings was not cheap. Remember that I do none of the work on my car myself (which people have already drug me over the coals for!). That said, there are plenty of folks on this board who have gotten into the hobby for not that much cash and who have minimal running costs. To that point, once I did all the initial tweaks to my Cat, it's been pretty inexpensive to run. Now I have to save up for the trailer for 7/7/7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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