What makes a 7 fun?

[ottocycle]

I wanted to start a thread on a subject that may prove to be a gearheads version of the medieval debate on how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

What I want to get peoples feedback on is this: From a vehicle dynamics point of view what is it that makes a cars handling predictable, balanced and fun. That sense of flattering security that some cars have that gives you loads of feedback and tells you when you are close to the edge. I have been cruising the 7 builders site and people get very excited about torsional rigidity, roll center heights, camber angles, the quest for optimum geometry and so on but I feel they are applying race car priorities to street/recreational applications. I think race cars are inherently "unstable" which gives them their cornering abilities but with better dynamics comes the need for better driver sensitivity and abilities. There is a reason why only few people can drive a formula 1 car competently.

I have never driven a modern racecar so I may be completely out of line here but it seems to me that when the driver is sitting close to the rear axle he feels the cars behavior more readily and consequently has more time to react to it. My theory is when you are at the axle you can feel 6" of sideways slide as 6" of slide whereas in a mid engined car you feel 6" of slide as 3" of slide and therefore you need faster reactions and greater sensitivity to control it. I drove a friends Noble a while ago and while I did not push it very hard it felt brilliant and I knew that each corner could have been taken faster but I the car was so planted I was not able to taste its feedback. I did not want to loose a friends car. The lasting impression I got from it was the brakes. They were awesome- like the hand of God came down and retarded its progress or magnetism. No pitch or drama whatsoever. The most fun car was a 1969 Mallock clubmans car. I could stick the tail of that thing out there and steer it on the gas pedal. It talked to me big time.

I know we have a number of racers, engineers and owners of more exotic machinery out there and I wanted to start a discussion on what makes a great trackday car or FUN drivers car as against racecar. If you were building a drivers car what would it have to have?

Cheers,

 

Dermot.

[Kitcat]

A Noble is on my short list of cars-to buy-next.

 

Don't know about the various car design theories but I think Chapman's "Add lightness" concept pretty much defines the Seven.

 

Lightness makes everything better: acceleration, cornering, stopping, weight transference. Add in a great suspension, make it low, and a convertible, give it adequate power and you have a great track car (sticks great, limits are predictable, and can be exceeded without catastrophic results).

 

It can also be driven aggressively on the street (as mine was this a.m. on the way to work).

Edited March 18, 2009 by Kitcat

[Silk]

Dermot,

 

Interesting question you pose. I drive three cars competitively – mostly autocross: a C6 Vette, a Cobra replica and a Super Stalker. All three fall under the general rubric of “high performance,” but all three have very discrete fun factors and performance characteristics.

 

From my perspective, the Cobra is the most fun to drive competitively. It’s a small, uncivilized car that you really have to muscle around the track, and it can step out without much warning. Lift-off oversteer is always deadly. Braking is tolerable, but my car has power nothing – not brakes, not steering – and I like it that way. Kind of like a trip down nostalgia lane. The overall sensory experience with a V8 and limited baffles in the side pipes is quite inspiring. Pretty enjoyable as a road car, even for long trips. With top and side curtains, it’s even tolerable in the rain – as long as remaining largely dry is not an important objective.

 

The Corvette is the least fun to drive, even though its-lap time performance is on par with, and in some circumstances better than, the Cobra. Brakes are superb, acceleration is awesome and the suspension/handling is excellent and very predictable. But it’s a big car and doesn’t give me quite the same level of confidence as the others that I can toss it around with impunity. I enjoy it tremendously, but it’s my rainy day competition car (and my daily driver).

 

The Super Stalker is in a class by itself in terms of performance. On a 50 second autocross course, I’m easily 3-4 seconds quicker in the Stalker than I am in either the Vette or the Cobra. And the Stalker is, for me, a very easy car to drive right at its limits. Flat handling, sticks like glue (I run non-DOT slicks), very predictable. It certainly inspires confidence in me as a driver and gives me lots of room for driver improvement. I think it handles more like a formula car than anything else. Looks wise – well, I suppose it’s an acquired taste. It seems a bit homely sitting between the other two cars. And when I’m running it hard, I think it sounds more like angry yard equipment than anything else. But when I’m focused on lap times, it always puts a huge grin on my face. Also fun on the road, especially in the twisties, even though it’s set up primarily as a track car.

 

In terms of head-turning quotient, the Vette is right about 0. The Cobra gets lots of thumbs up and waves. The Stalker gets a lot of “WTF is that” looks – except for the enlightened among us who recognize it for what it is and honk and wave enthusiastically. All in all, I feel very fortunate to have these three cars. They all deliver a different driving experience and I thoroughly enjoy each of them.

 

Gary

[jbanker]

Gary,

 

"Stalker quote-- Looks wise – well, I suppose it’s an acquired taste. It seems a bit homely sitting between the other two cars. And when I’m running it hard, I think it sounds more like angry yard equipment than anything else...."

 

It's that odd fire GM 3.8 V6 that gives it a funny sound. The 2.8 and 3.4 60° V6 is an even fire motor and much more pleasing to the ear....I love my little 60° V6..!!!!

 

My recently acquired '99, gen II, Miata is fun to drive as well. I drove one at the National Tour at Peru two years ago and decided that I had to have one. They can be well prepared for SCCA Solo 2 CSP class. However, the fun meter goes up a couple notches in an under weight, over powered Se7en. You are correct regarding turning heads..!!!

 

Jack

[Silk]

Jack,

 

I have to admit the Cobra has spoiled me a bit on how the Stalker sounds.

 

And I completely agree with you on the Miata. A fellow Cobra owner and I did the 2007 One Lap in his bone stock '95 Miata, and we had a blast. Over 5000 miles without a hicup, and the car was great on the track. Second lowest HP of all the entrants (a Geo Metro kept us out of the HP basement), but we still finished 65th out of about 90 cars. We affectionatley called ourselves SLO~MO~FO Racing. If I were to buy a track-day ride, that would be it!

 

Gary