Blackcatn2o Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 I am a Ford Focus Duratec owner looking for some answers. I just found out lately I have to bore out my 2.3L Duratec block because one of three bores was wore out by 10 thousands (SHIT!:banghead:) so 88 mm pistons will be in the block. I know for a fact I can run 11.6:1 compression with a mild cam, cosworth Intake manifold, with a full exhaust on 93 octane. My question is can I get away with murder by running a 12:1 compression on 93 oct with stock cams and intake manifold? btw I would just die to be a owner of a Caterham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusaNostra Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 You really need to find a very knowledgeable tuner or you are pushing the envelope. The tuner has to concentrate on VE table, hi/low octane spark tables, retard & knock tables. In my estimation, the engine will explode using 93 octane with hi-compression. Why not up to 14.5 cr and use a good fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Amen. There are mechanical issues re marrying parts and then, assuming you have an after market ECU, finding a shop that can deal with a non-standard engine configuration. There's a shortage of folk out there who actually understand what they're doing and it can get really expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1turbofocus Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 I can do all your tuning needs and have tuned hundreds of Duratec Engines , about 11.6 would be your max on the Duratec engine , The stock ECU will be more then enough to handle your tuning needs Your best Forum to help you would be http://www.focusfanatics.com I am 1turbofocus there and you will see I am a well respected builder and tuner there Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 1turbofocus, So there's enough headroom with the stock injectors' #/hour rate for the EEC algorithm to work OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1turbofocus Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Stock Inj no , I would hope that anyone wanting to go to a higher compression would also be looking at Header Injectors 42lb Intake system with bigger MAF Cams Or just higher compression would be a little over kill with out the other parts , My opinion its a good combination of things that make a good performing engine , sais he has the Cosi intake manifold and Exh already so he has a good start I ran 96lb Inj in My Focus with the stock ECU , idled and ran like stock as for driveability Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Hmmm. While Ive not been paying attention to latest EEC configuration, I'd be surprised to learn that they've changed the architecture that fundamentally (although I have heard recently that the turbos use Speed Density because MAF is too difficult to program for the behavior of turbo lag). The real plus of the Ford system has been that it's a parameter-driven algorithm, rather than a table-dependent lookup system. If you modified your Ford, all you had to do was change the values (e.g., in the case of the injector size) or the characteristic table (e.g., in the case of the MAF) in the EEC once you figured out the configuration that you thought would work and the algorithm had the proper values to control the new pieces (of course you had to dis-assemble the code and figure out where everything was specified, and have a means of changing it). But if the algorithm thinks it's feeding fuel through one rate of injector and turns out to be controlling those of another rate not to mention breathing through a different sized MAF, it's hard to imagine it could work at all. Perhaps they figured out how to take "adaptive" to the point where the injector size is not specified? But I'd expect more noise from the EEC folk, not to mention other turner communities, if Ford came up with a completely automatic control mechanism - providing a self-tuning engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1turbofocus Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Not at all , this is nothing new I have been tuning Fords sense 84 with the SVO Mustang and using Autologic which by todays standards was archaic but worked If you go to larger Inj you just put in the High / Low slopes of the new Inf size then use the Mass Air Transfer Functions to control your fueling , same thing with the Mass Air if you go to a larger size either change the Injector sizes in the software or put in the new maf transfer voltage table for the larger MAF This isnt adapting this is writing right to the ECU either through a chip (models up to 96) or through the OBDII from 96 to 2012 Alomst everyone uses MAF now days , I like it much better all of the Turbo Zetec and Duratecs I build I use 60lb Injectors , 3 inch MAF and do the set up blowthrough meaning the MAF is between the intercooler and TB vs suckthrough where the MAF is before the turbo between the filter and turbo , blowthrough is a little harder to tune but much better over all driveability I have 100% controle over every table , scalar , function that the stock ECU uses and can safely change them to make 723HP at the wheels with my Zetec in my 2000 Ford Focus where the Ford engineers that drove it stated it drove around town as good as if not better then stock with 96lb Injectors and a 3 inch blow through MAF and ran a 10.95 @ 137 MPH on DOT tires and A/C working It isnt automatic or self tuning and I turn the adaptive off , the stock ECU is very powerfull an this software has been out for some time now and in my opinion if people are not going to ITB they should be using the stock ECU I have SCCA winning Caterhams running stock ECU and my tuning where I tune there cars in Houston and I am in NC and tune them remotely with out going there , just updated a tune on one Saturday this last weekend If you want to take a look go to http://www.sctflash.com thats the software I use or http://www.diablosport.com also use thers and they have some of the best datalogging software built into the flashers as well as the ability to scan and clear CEL = Check Enging Light and give you the codes that are bad Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusaNostra Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) Ok--through calculation, the limit of 93 octane is between 9.2 to 9.3 cr. You can get away with 9.7cr using 93 octane but you need a big cam that has plenty of overlap, so how da h3ll you can tune a car without replacing/calculating the cam @ 12.1? To complicate more, its actually 12.4:1. this is your final or corrected compresssion ratio(FC). You need to add the corrected altitude. FC- (altitude/1000)x.02 then your cam selection. Blackcatn2o mentioned he has a stock cam and that's all he got. He was asking if he can get away with what he got? My answer is NO!!! He has to spend so much money through parts and a knowleable tuner who knows all the algorithm parameters instead of filling the blanks modern software today. Pay attention what he was asking. You really need to know the dynamic compression ratio. Your motor only sees the full static compression if your intake valve closes at bottom dead center or before. There is no guessing game here. Changing injector & trimming alone will not do you any good. With the big race cam, you have a late closing intake valve. The DYNAMIC COMPRESSION IS THE VALUE TO WATCH! Your piston could be 1/4 way up the bore before the intake value closes and your engine only capture 3/4 the cylinder volume. His cam is sTOCK!!!! Kaboooom! Edited April 30, 2012 by BusaNostra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1turbofocus Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 This isnt my first rodeo with tuning , its far more then filling in the blanks in the software , I tune and I tune in the same way Ford tunes these cars and with basicly the same software You can get away with far more then 9.7 on 93 , you may want to look at some of the new car engines out with compression over 10-1 for 87 fuel , the SVT Focus 2.0 (basicaly a Zetec) was 10.2 and used 91 fuel The Duratec has a more efficient combustion chamber so you can do more compression and not have to run a lot of timing , there are guys in the Focus world running Duratecs for years now with over 10.5 and some over 11 with my tuning and no issues Please before you go bad mouthing me or the software out todat take a look around at what others and my self have been doing for years and its working and the engines are safe I did pay attention to what he was asking and answered it , I am sorry you didnt like the answer but it doesnt change the fact that my answer is correct Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1turbofocus Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 parts and a knowleable tuner who knows all the algorithm parameters instead of filling the blanks modern software today. Pay attention what he was asking. Algorithm : step-by-step procedure for calculations , Wouldnt this mean filling in the balnks as well LOL ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusaNostra Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) You need a huge head porting and cams with huge lift and high duration to bleed off enough compression to allow for such a high compression ratio on anything other than race gas. How will you do this to his stock cam? Retarding alone will not help, the car will severly run like zhyte. I can do that too. Tell me about his stock cam @ 12:4 cr. Even Houdini can't untie this problem. Sure 10:1 will run in 93 octane, In math, the minimum and maximum you can run safe is what I indicated. You can do + or - but that is not the safest way. Mathematic is not "none or all in above". I used Motec and electromotive on those days, I sit down and bang my head to calculate what its needed before I do the "filling the blanks". I know exactly what you were doing, you relied in auto configuration. It gives you the best possible value (could be in the middle or below) but not the exact one. It's a hit or miss. More power to you....I know you always have the last say. Edited April 30, 2012 by BusaNostra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1turbofocus Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I am not sure what your problem is or why you feel the need to act this way I have been building Engines as a buisness for 32 years , I know what works and what doesnt and yes he can run mid 10`s to lower 11 compression with his stock cams and be fine and it will perform well and be safe You speek "in math" I speek in the real world it works and people are doing it and have done it , maybe in your mind it doesnt and thats fine but dont limit this guy to things that you say dont work but others are doing , sure his engine would run better with a set of cams , header , even Adj cam gears to fine tune them I have no idea why your banging you head doing the calculations for the Motec and Electromotive as there easy to use and do the calculations , crap there is hardly anything there to change these use the bare basics to get by and nothing more , can do a tune from cold and start the car in about 30 min , try tuning with a real ECU doing it the way tuning should be done like with the stock ECU LOL you dont have a clue what I am doing , auto configuration ? what are you talking about , Just to change Inj sizes I have to change the High slope , low slope, brakepoint , Fuel Inj Min Pulse Width , Inj Psi Drop , Inj Comp Batt Offset and about a dozen other things , what "auto configuration " LOL My guess is you have never tuned a real ECU or used any of this software but you want to belittle me for doing so , Please before doing that talk to some of my Customers and see how there cars make 150 to 500HP and there cars run like stock or better Is everyone on this Forum like this ? If you dont understand something ask I , If you seem something I am doing is wrong I have no issues saying why I do something , But you dont have to come across like an AZZ , Or do you ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S1Steve Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Tom, I enjoy reading your posts .Beware, I still don't understand it yet. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1turbofocus Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Thats fine and understandable , If you have a question just ask , If I can answer it I will be glad to , the only stupid questions are the ones you dont know the answer to and dont ask Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestTexasS2K Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Stock Honda is 11:1 US spec and 11:7 in JDM spec. My new engine being built by Endyn will be 12:1 and will run on pump gas it will use stock cams. He said he builds them on a regular basis. It's probably pushing the envelope and it will definitely need to be tuned to be reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Not at all , this is nothing new I have been tuning Fords sense 84 Perhaps. There are enough bits in your reply that map back to what ShiftMaster gave us and what I learned disassembling EEC code looking for the injector vector and MAF table definition, for me to consider that you just might be a perfectly capable tuner. I also realize that figuring out all of this stuff and getting it to work is one thing, but having the technical writing skills to produce a concise description of the work is another, as are the social skills to deal with skepticism. When huge claims are made by a tuner, anyone who has a serious investment in their car can only be expected to be pretty skeptical - being able to answer skeptics is just one part of the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1turbofocus Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 You should base picking your tuner on his ability to tune not how well he puts up with BS I have no problem answering skeptics , most just dont like the that I dont beat around the bush doing it I have found after many years of doing that , That it still gets me no where and I have to type two times as much to say the same thing , Its people that tell me I am doing things wrong with software that they obviously never used that bothers me Thats also why I stated that if you look on http://www.focusfanatics.com they you can see I am a well respected member in the Zetec / SVT / Duratec tuning and building community BUT point taken Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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