Guest Terry Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 There is no doubt that without the presence of Christiananity the world would be in a much worse place, yet at the same time one has to wonder if in fact the Christain church & Islam has done untold damage to the concept of God. It's facinating to see the rise in spirituality & spiritual hunger that exists outside the boundaries of the worlds major religions, yet when one looks at the masive drop in numbers that attend the main line churches in the western world it isnt difficult to understand why so many are seeking answers to lifes difficult questions outside the normal structures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinnyG Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Do you feel it was "Christianity" that did untold damage, or the "people in charge at the time?" What are your thoughts on "western culture," "wealth" and "materialsim" being a contributing factor towards the drop in church attendance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Pr&c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnr Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 There is no doubt that without the presence of Christiananity the world would be in a much worse place In your opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timax Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 70% of the world are not christian. Of the 30% that are , many are not practicing. I dont think you will find too much support with your first statement. Doing a quick "Wiki" on Religious wars ,of the 6 major ones mentioned, Christians were involved with every one of them. So "a much worse place " without christianity? How do you think that, im interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Funny how it always falls back on the papal leaders of old to gauge Christianity in the present. Wasn't the last Christian crusade 740 years ago? Yet most seem to forget that the very first religious crusade/ conquest predates the christian crusade by some 400 years. And was started by Mohammed in the 7th century. The Muslims got all the way to the Pyrenees and into Austria. It was the spread of Islam to Europe and the resultant blockade of pilgrimages to the holy land that originally prompted the first crusade. Of course corruption and abuses were present on both sides. So in summary, The Christians crusaded from 1096-1272 a period of 176 years. The Muslims crusaded from 634-1800 a period of 1166 years. Yet the Christians catch all the shit when it comes to crusading. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raceral Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 It doesn't matter what the situation is whether it is Christianity or Muslim or whatever, if man is involved, he will screw it up.:sadangel: On the other hand I attended a very nice candle light service which I enjoyed immensely, so maybe man doesn't screw up everything, all of the time..:hurray: Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The facts are like them or not is that Christian values have spread to just about every nation. My observation from traveling to 64 countries is that most places I have been to have addopted Christian values even if they remain pagen and hostile to Christianity (and no I'm not a christian) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Of the 30% that are , many are not practicing. The whole issue of non practicing is a non issue, people either are or their not. If you put a BMW badge on a Ford, its still a Ford not a non practicing BMW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 (edited) The facts are like them or not is that Christian values have spread to just about every nation. My observation from traveling to 64 countries is that most places I have been to have addopted Christian values even if they remain pagen and hostile to Christianity (and no I'm not a christian) Of course belief in and adoption of Christian values are two different things. Our Muslim tour guide Mr. Mamhet on our trip to Eastern Turkey just an hours flight from Syria. Said the following. He has great hatred for his Muslim brothers that kill in the name of Allah. His life long Muslim faith has taught him that all life is to be respected. And that it is disrespectful to Allah for one to harm their own or others bodies. So the Muslim belief that to drink, smoke, harm one another, not to steal, Etc, Etc as being an affront to their deity, is very much the same as Christian values. I suppose one could call those types of values. Universal values. Additionally, The birth of Jesus was just a few sentences in the bible. The word Christmas never appears in the Bible. It was an invention by the Catholic church 300 years after his death and is not from the teachings of the Bible. They used this date because it was already part of the celebrations of pagans called the Saturnalia. The church figured that if they injected Christianity into this pagan holiday it might help spread the word. http://www.antipas.org/books/xmas/xmas2.html Edited December 31, 2013 by bigdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnr Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The facts are like them or not is that Christian values have spread to just about every nation. My observation from traveling to 64 countries is that most places I have been to have addopted Christian values even if they remain pagen and hostile to Christianity (and no I'm not a christian) The suggestion that being good and not killing people are values that come only from christianity is laughable and ignorant. India and China are over a third of the worlds population - are you saying that despite being largely non-christian they would be running around killing each other if christianity had not been invented? Plus humanity and various ancient civilizations did quite well for themselves before christianity. As Bigdog says humans do have universal values (which do change over time) and to say that they come from and one religion or from any religion at all is pretty short sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The suggestion that being good and not killing people are values that come only from christianity is laughable and ignorant. India and China are over a third of the worlds population - are you saying that despite being largely non-christian they would be running around killing each other if christianity had not been invented? Plus humanity and various ancient civilizations did quite well for themselves before christianity. As Bigdog says humans do have universal values (which do change over time) and to say that they come from and one religion or from any religion at all is pretty short sighted. In your opinion of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnr Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 In your opinion of course Absolutely in my opinion. But I am curious to hear your explanation about why you believe what you term to be "christian values" are not universal human values. Do you believe that there would be worldwide anarchy if christianity had not been invented? What about all the various pre-christian civilizations which did flourish for thousands of years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Absolutely in my opinion. But I am curious to hear your explanation about why you believe what you term to be "christian values" are not universal human values. Do you believe that there would be worldwide anarchy if christianity had not been invented? What about all the various pre-christian civilizations which did flourish for thousands of years? So where do our values come from? As I said most of the 230 plus countries have addopted christian values Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnr Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 So where do our values come from? As I said most of the 230 plus countries have addopted christian values All social animals all have some sort of order and/or value system that does not always directly improve the individuals life. Pack animals (lions, hyenas, wolves) hunt together and share the spoils. Many insects (ants, bees, wasps) have workers look after eggs together despite no direct benefit to the individual. I'd argue that any cooperation is an example of social norms which are not that different from "thou shalt not kill". I have a problem with your use of the term "christian values" as the name for the current generally accepted social norms. Confucius, Buddha and many others have preached/advised/followed very similar value systems for hundreds of years before christianity which to me indicates that those values are more universal than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timax Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 The whole issue of non practicing is a non issue, people either are or their not. If you put a BMW badge on a Ford, its still a Ford not a non practicing BMW. I agree , you either are or not. However on my Birth Certificate im listed as being "Church of England" yet im a non believer. In the stats im counted as a Christian. Your final comment is more about my religion. While a BMW badge on a ford may be a Sacrilege to a few. It seems in the USA especially, LOTUS badges adorn many cars that have never been anywhere near a lotus factory. Total Blasphemy! Religion is always an interesting subject. Im totally selfish in that I travel for religion yet i am not at all religious. Religion has shaped the world as we know it today. Culture and architecture are what takes me to ...Srilanka , India , Laos , Vietnam , Nepal etc etc. This time last year i was at the " Kumbh Mela" in India. Look that one up for some amazing images. I take from religion with passion yet i give nothing back. So for me although i dont agree with your first statement about Christianity itself , if you included ALL religions i would have to agree. The world would be bland without them. Have a great New Year and believe in what ever you feel passionate about without prejudice . Regards Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Tim, all the very best to you also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 (edited) Mr rnr "The suggestion that being good and not killing people are values that come only from christianity is laughable and ignorant" Now you've moved away from a discussion to condisending insults. :seeya: Edited January 1, 2014 by Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rnr Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 (edited) Mr rnr "The suggestion that being good and not killing people are values that come only from christianity is laughable and ignorant" Now you've moved away from a discussion to condisending insults. :seeya: Saying that christianity is the only source of moral values on earth is far more condescending and insulting to the vast majority of humanity which is not christian. Nice way to ignore my following points by pointing to a older post that you had already read and responded to earlier without any apparent issues Edited January 1, 2014 by rnr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Saying that christianity is the only source of moral values on earth is far more condescending and insulting to the vast majority of humanity which is not christian. Nice way to ignore my following points by pointing to a older post that you had already read and responded to earlier without any apparent issues Taking issue and being hostile with people because you don’t agree with you only reveals your true self. In the end you are free to come to what ever conclusions you like regarding the posts on this forum, please have the decency to allow other to enjoy the same privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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