randychase

Yep. In the end, everyone on this forum is a fan of the cars and is almost evangelical in our zeal to spread the word. We all want the car makers to do well. We all want more car people to buy them. And to be clear, though I am the Zenos guy now... I don't think the Zenos and Caterham are really cross shopped much. In other words, I do not expect to take away any sales from Caterham, nor do I see Caterham taking sales from me. I wish Caterham and Superformance and the new dealers all the best. I am a fan of the company and the cars.

All of the existing dealerships, as I understand it, were offered an opportunity to continue. I was sent a long contract to sign. There were things I was not comfortable with, so I declined to move forward. I will leave the details out. But I will say that with very few sales per year, it is hard to justify spending much money on marketing, unless one is sure that this will equate to more sales. With higher prices, one can get more margin, which is certainly a plus for a dealer as it was really too low before. But it can also cause fewer sales. So it could be a chicken-egg thing. It is a tough place to be. I am very opinionated about what should happen and what should not (such as why I do not think you can sell the 160 here).... but I also recognize my opinions mean squat. And yes, I think the previous method of doing business had some real issues, so it is for sure not like it was perfect before. I will also leave it at that and not go into details in public. My 2 cents.

Justin, did the Sadev install ever get down with John? I kept seeing your car in the shop. p.s. I think the question is though, the price of the R500 a few years ago is a lot less than the cost of the top end Caterham now.

But to be fair, the logic is not really the same. If one polled track users of Caterhams, that set is still a subset of the people who were not at the track with Caterhams. My set was people inquiring about the car... not actually buyers... so that also skews the results. I should have been clearer about that. IMO, there is probably not much difference between the coasts as to track use vs street.

I think more serious track rats understand the value of having a trailer when going to the track. Specially if the track is some distance from home should there be an oops or mechanical issue. For those that are about driving to the track, then other cars become options, such as Porsche or the Lotus. But, of all the inquiries I received about Caterhams when I was in Calif... only a few mentioned track use.

I think there is indeed some Malaysian pressure for some return on investment from Tony F. Plus the whole F1 thing, which appears to be rumored to be sold very soon. Plus the loss of the marketi ng tie in with the new product line that was to be produced with Renault Alpine. Having said that, I think the pricing we are seeing is much more from the US side.

Kinda random thoughts follow- Track guys are more interested in a used car than new... and there are also many track options out there that compete well on price. So when you get near a Radical price, why not buy a Radical? Or look to cars with more power and aero? Unless you are already a Seven fan. Limited market. In my experience, there is not one kind of customer. But a common customer (mainly a street car) is: Older. From UK or Europe, or spent some time over there. Maybe saw the car on The Prisoner and was a big fan. Now has some saved up money and wants the car he lusted after 30 years ago. This was my most common contact. My concern as a dealer, was this market is getting older and eventually it may turn into fewer sales. If one was still selling Model T's to those that saw them as youngsters, you would probably see a bell curve peaking in the 1940s. There is also the customer that is a car guy, has seen Top Gear, wants the best/fastest car and money is not much of an object. These are pretty rare, so sales are limited. Think Simon and the like. But there are competing products out there like the Ariel Atom, BAC Mono, KTM X-BOW, and of course coming... the Zenos E10. It comes down to what features, styling appeals to the this limited market. One will only sell so many of any of these cars. Then the younger customer that understands the experience and wants to own one. Has a good salary so can afford it. Again, not that many younger (sub 50 years old) people can afford a toy like this, so sales are limited. And again there is the competition. In general, the Seven is a very niche car. The retro styling is not for everyone. The raw experience is something that one has to experience to get, and even then, many end up thinking they would rather buy a car with dealer warranty, air conditioning, and all the nice creature comforts. Once the price is near a GTR or 911 or , then it becomes a difficult sale except to the nuts like us. Problem for car makers and dealers... there are only so many nuts. And the trends are to electronic controls, paddle shifting and slushboxes, ICE, and also away from petrol... so that has to be considered also. The world is changing. On the positive, there is a place for cars without all that stuff... more simple, manual gearboxes, the smell of exhaust. But then that appeals to the nuts. Now truly, there are nuts out there that just don't know about the car. So if there was more exposure, that should turn into more sales. But if the marketing is only to the converted or exposed (like those on this forum), then you do not create new nuts as much. You would only be slicing the pie up differently, not making a bigger pie. The other problem, is that the car appeals more to the do-it-yourselfer. Which means kits. And often frugality goes hand in hand with the person who likes doing it themselves. Not always of course. But many existing Seven fans are less willing to pay for something that is already built, specially at a premium price. They take pride in making their own brackets... as compared to buying from the factory. Which is cool, but not great for a car maker. These are the reasons sales were limited, specially after the economy shift in 2008. The big question for Caterham (IMHO)... is can they increase sales in the USA with more exposure and marketing? I believe they could have with the older pricing model. I tried very hard to get Caterham to back me at a booth at the Los Angeles Auto Show (I knew the people running it and was offered a sweet deal on a large space next to Lotus). But there was no interest in being at the show, where almost ONE MILLION people would attend. Oh well.... Just some thoughts. It is not an easy position to be in to sell a lot of these (IMO).

http://dietschwerks.com/ are great people.

Update. Car has been sold to a nice guy in the Huntsville Alabama area. I think he got a great deal and I am happy to transfer this car to a true enthusiast who appreciates the experience.

Looks like normal pricing would be $87,075. I just sold mine for under $40K. Damn....

I was also told they would look at it if they had 10 orders. But I do not think it would be an easy engineering task as the SC really wants to bolt to the intake manifold and that is a tight area where the steering shaft runs. Can you move and then articulate the shaft? Seems non-trivial. I would consider instead a turbo as that could go on the exhaust side.

Right. Jon might have one, I do not know. I know he can source them. If you went with a custom engine idea... it would have been better to start with a Euro Spec CSR, however these are both wired for the standard Cosworth 2.3l engine. If the idea is to use the same supercharged Duratec that is in the 620R, be aware that the supercharger is on the driver's side of the engine bay and supposedly makes it impossible to have a left hand drive, without some engineering. I think it is not that big of a deal to use a stock 2.3l engine. Would need a different ECU and tune I think.

My understanding was the last few years was more like 12-15 cars per year. And this was the main reason that Caterham wanted to change distribution channel to increase sales.

I do say in the first post these are kits. To be clear, they are kits. Not rollers. They need to be assembled. And though it can be frustration and is more work, most of my customers actually wanted to build the cars and that was a big reason they selected the Caterham. Jon in Denver *likes* building CSRs and I am sure it could be arranged. Thanks for the note, I was linking to my secure server side.... fixed.

Indeed. We can't wait to see it mated to the RST V8 engine.

It is true that one can not buy a CSR now in the USA through normal channels. I think the $15K is based on the average increase in MSRP for all kits. These were not (as I was told) customer cars but instead Jon was offered his last chance to buy his lot of cars... he normally only bought to fill a container..which was I think 6 cars. So any spots not spoken for, he would just buy with some guesses as to the best variation he could sell.

We have also seen the instruction issue. Jon was upfront with me that building a CSR is not for the faint of heart and some hand holding is expected. One of my pet peeves being a dealer, was exactly that. The documentation from Caterham UK was excellent. But where things were different in the USA, it was expected to call and get information when I found it. Which from my inner engineer, only means I would rush to document things...

Well, it is still a roller kit that requires you to buy the drivetrain. One still has to source the Cosworth engine ($17K?) and a suitable gearbox. We are building a CSR with an RST V8 and Sadev sequential, so other options are available. For most states registration requires you to source the drivetrain from a separate entity than the one selling you the roller kit. To be clear I am trying to help Jon in Denver sell these kits as he is very busy and overseas a lot. And my personal take is this a bargain and the last of the bargain CSRs. So I am trying to let the community know.

There is a price sheet for engines and gearboxes. You can also look at gearbox pricing at the Caterham UK Online store. But simply expect to pay $1600 or so for a 5 speed and $3K for a 6. You can get crate engine pricing from your Ford dealer. But simply... you can buy a Duratec 2l for mid 3K. I sourced used refurbished ones for $800 each. YMMV

Plus the R500 is left hand drive, which most would consider a positive.

Last of the imports pre-Superformance! These are being sold under the old pricing. They will not last long. CSR- Krypton Green with black pack, carbon front wings and dash, quick release and Momo Wheel, 4-point belts. CSR- white with black pack and black noseband, leather seats in choice of red or black, carbon front wings and dash, quick release and Momo wheel, 4-points. Approx $55k FOB Denver which is $15k under the new MSRP. Both are kits and require engines, gearboxes, and assembly which can all be arranged. Kits are on shore almost any day now... so you will also not be waiting.

Almost certain it was a not canned font

That is correct. The UK is in charge of this. The US side just gives input.

That was my conclusion also and I have a guy waiting to do the first one. As far as wrapping, it looks like a relatively easy job.

Sorry I misunderstood, I was responding less to the NAPA and more to the southern redneck comment you made. As I said in my reply, I did not understand your comment, so thanks for clarifying. My comment to the rest of the car market was a crude attempt to explain that if one took ALL CARS ONE COULD BUY (ie the rest of the market)... then cars like the Zenos and Caterhams are far from special parts-requiring cars, they are pretty simple with generic drivetrains. Most of the bits are easily sourced, but now understanding your point... yes, if one buys a British car of any kind... you may not be able to get every part at NAPA. Part of the charm.