Ethanol in fuel

[7evin]

I guess Mojito will be getting Diesel fuel for her winter storage.....

[WestTexasS2K]

Storage?

[tvacc]

Our research shows that adding the blue (marine) version of stabil does in fact help, according to Stabil. I plan to use it in every tank from now on. 2oz in each tank full.

[7evin]

Storage?

 

Storage: (defined as) I am a puss and don't like driving in the snow......

Yes it snows in GA.

Two many 1 lap flashbacks....

[jimrankin]

As usual reality doesnt mater, but a big government subsity seems to. Most late model cars are built with the ability to handle ethanol in the fuel but why? It's not reallly saving any substantial (some claim "None") amount of energy and the demand has raised the price of our corn to the point where China and other countries are now entering that market cutting into another of our few exports. Not to mention how much petroleum based fertilizer is used and diesel to plant and harvest subsidized fuel corn. A large sugar beet farmer (in California, not the midwest) I have known for years changed to corn because of the government money available. He claims the lack of sugar beets will raise the price of US produced sugar (hey, no problem, we'll just import more) and also milk and beef because the dried beet pulp is a good, and low cost, animal feed component.

Brazil is sited as getting 90% of it's transportation (cars) energy from alcohol based (actually 100% alcohol) fuel but the government didn't pay for that change and they use non-food based plants for the raw materials. Maybe we should be looking at the "third world" nations for a heads up on what works instead of the corporate farm lobby in Washington.

[midgetracr]

Brazil doesn't hold an early Presidential Primary. Iowa does.

Wonder if this might have something to do with the Ethanol Subsidies.

[jimrankin]

Best place to raise "junk weed" alcohol crops such as rapeweed is in swampy areas. If we can get Clem and all his cousins interested in raising something besides alligators and cat fish out behind the house we might be into something here. Unfortunately, until Big Oil and Big Ag can find a way to control the means of production and distribution of "real" alternative energy we are going to be burning E85.

Being an American I have the right to point out just how stupid we can be. In a lively discussion (read argument) about how unrealistic at "saving the environment" a full sized V8 "Hybrid" SUV was it was pointed out that I "waste gas" because I have a "race car". When I mentioned that it's a four cylinder that sees the track about ten time a year and my daily driver is a MINI as opposed to her SUV she said that she "HAS" to drive a full sized SUV because she has two kids. See how stupid I am, I wasn't even aware that you were required to have a giant tall hard to get into SUV if you had children. I'd better call mine and beg forgivness for carting them around all those years in the back of a four door '73 Nova. LOL.

[JohnK]

Jim et al,

I agree with you about the "looking in the mirror" part; some of our current economic situation has to be due to a wide-spread attitude of "I can do any damn thing I want to".

But getting back to the Ethanol problem, Capitalism as an economic system has a lot of really awful properties - like, once a company (like an oil company) establishes itself, if it's a GOOD Capitalist, it will do ANYTHING to keep anyone from hurting its economic position. This means we're pretty much stuck with whatever it is they're selling, and that someone else out there with a really great new solution or insight or idea is gonna get mugged by any company that's threatened by a potential challenge to its business. Kinda makes you feel stuck in the mud when you think about, like, finding some cool way of making your Seven work better.

[jimrankin]

Capitalism is by far the best economic system out there. When working at it's best it creates or supplies consumer demands, breeds innovation and efficiency and in the majority of cases rewards quick thinking and hard work. On the other hand, just like JohnK stated, when a market segment becomes controlled by "Big Business" to the point where it becomes a shared monopoly the only interest becomes keeping the cash cow producing. Fossil fuel and ethanol are a good case of two big business cash cows being milked for all they are worth and big government subsidising the pail.

Even when big government throws money at alternatives it isn't always where it should go. I recently toured the Tesla plant in Palo Alto and looked at all of the different types of vehicles they are working on (You can sure see just how involved Toyota is). I don't hold out much hope for them doing much for everyday single vehicle familys or consumers who live out of urban areas as battery technology is a real stumbling point. You could get around the limited range if it weren't for the slow recharge rate. They are seriously working on that but just how fast realistic weight and recharge technology are developed is anyones guess and until they have an electric car that can recharge while your in getting a burger and shake it's not a car you can take on a trip to grandma's house if she lives out of state.

This isn't the forum to go into all the mistakes being made on the basic concept of what a Hybrid or electric car should be but one of these days I'll dig up a paper I wrote over twenty, crap, now pushing thirty years, ago about it.

Have a Happy New Year Everyone!

[ecarte56]

Hi, new to the group...

 

I have been slowly learning the hard way about E10. It can definitely ruin an engine. Commercially sold gasoline is not the clean product that we would like to think it is anyway. In my business, E10 has been a major concern and I don't like it... but it does not seem to be as bad as the magazines say it is. For what it's worth, this is what my experience has been from selling E10 and storing boats with E10 gas:

 

Phase separation does not automatically occur in three or six months unless a lot of water gets into the tank thru a bad load of gas, a fill cap being left off or the like. Yes, there can be condensation on the tank walls and I don't doubt that water vapor absorbs into the surface of the ethanol fuel over time - but we store a lot of boats and we are not seeing fuel system damage or phase separation in fuel tanks that went into storage with uncontaminated fuel. Maybe E10 would eventually go bad this way, but not in six months - at least we have not seen it, and this is with open tank vents - not with closed fuel systems like modern cars have. It is relatively dry in the winter most of the time. Maybe we would have more of a problem if we were in a more humid environment?

 

If the fuel is suspect, there are ways to test it. Up to a point, E10 will absorb water without showing it. Phase separation occurs when E10 becomes saturated with water. I don't remember the numbers - maybe 3% at room temp? Until it reaches the saturation point, the fuel will look clear. One test we sometimes do is put a fuel sample in the freezer. If not quite saturated but there is enough water in the fuel, it will turn cloudy when it gets cold. If thefuel is really bad and phase separation has occured already, the alcohol/water/sludge drops to the bottom of the tank. The fuel on top will look clear, but will be low octane. Both the low octane gas and the stuff on the bottom is bad news. Another test is to take a measured sample of good fuel, add increments of water until phase separtion occurs. Then we take a sample of the suspect fuel and perform the same test. If less water causes phase separation, then the suspect fuel already had some water in it. Or you can send a sample out for $$$. I learned all of this from my fuel guru, Fred Ruling at Valvtect. If anyone knows of additional practical testing methods, I am interested.

 

There are limitations to this kind of testing. The amount of water required for saturation will also vary with the percent alchohol. If the supposedly E10 is really E5 or E25, then you don't know if your simple test is telling you the water content or the alcohol content. One fuel supplier told me that gas stations can sometimes end up with water and phase separation in the tank. They pump out the water and then add pure ethanol to get the octane back up. Hopefully they are testing the fuel when they do this. I have been told that low octane fuel is delivered to regional depots, and then the ethanol is added before distributing to the gas station. Sounds like lots of opportunities for things to get screwed up!

 

Stabilizer seems to work. I don't think a stabilizer will prevent phase separation but it does seem to prevent varnish and solids from depositing as much. We especially recommend stabilizer for engines with small carburetors, especially 4 cycle outboards that have very small jets. Do your homework on stabilizers. There are all kinds of additives on the shelf; some potions might make things worse - like alcohol based products. Dry gas will not solve a phase separation problem!

 

Depends on which expert you talk to; some say empty the tank for storage, others say store with a full tank. I find arguments for full tank or near full more convincing - as long as it is not for a year or more. Near full is preferable to avoid fuel spilling out the vent from thermal expansion.

 

Most boats have aluminum tanks. E10 may be corrosive, but we have not seen corrosion damage on aluminum unless there was contamination or phase separation. Maybe we will if we wait long enough? E10 is a good "cleaner." Pre E10 aluminum tanks tended to get white oxide deposits. When we were forced to switch to E10, the oxide broke loose and clogged filters for a couple of years. Another issue that we learned about after it was too late, was that alcohol and MBTE should not be mixed; apparently they react and precipitate some kind of solid.

 

Hoses and seals have to be ethanol rated. This is pretty important. We have not seen any problems yet, but I expect we will.

 

Have read that ethanol is bad for the foam in fuel cells; I am putting a plastic tank in my car, but will be leaving the foam out for street driving.

[WestTexasS2K]

We found an alcohol reistant foam at JEGS. We have had it in for 3 years now running E85 with no degredation.

[Bahnstormer]

I think it is being introduce over her in the UK too - not good for old Crossflow engines !

[horizenjob]

I'm not sure corrosive is the right word, though it is the result. Methanol and Ethanol are strong electrolytes. So if you have dis similar metals in the fuel system they will support an electrical current that will quickly turn your fuel system into a battery with a short.

 

Years ago we had a local circle track convert to methanol. The Weber side drafts were fairly resistant. A friend with an engine on a dyno using a good quality Japanese side draft, like a Weber, did not have such luck though. After sitting on the dyno over night, it refused to start. Opening the covers over the float bowl revealed that in 16 hours the fuel had completely congealed into a solid milky white material and the carbs were totally destroyed.

 

Used to be the Indy car folks would always "pickle" their engines (which run %100 methanol) every time they shut down after running. The system was switched over to a pure gasoline supply and run until it was purged. This had the extra benefit of providing enrichment for cold start the next day!

 

Alcohol is a great fuel, but it just isn't the same as gasoline. It's good that MTBE has been removed from fuel, it was starting to show up in water supplies in the NorthEast and that was a terrible thing. It is almost impossible, even for a lab, to remove MTBE from water. Using corn (food) to make fuel is just wrong...

[phowie50]

I was just reading through this thread and thought about a station I saw a week ago near my home. It advertised "ethanol-free gas." I looked it up online, and in the process I found a site dedicated to promoting all the ethanol-free gas stations in the US.

 

Check out the site here: http://pure-gas.org/

 

From what I recall, the ethanol-free station near me (Quality Gas in Salem, OR) has prices within the realm of the ethanol-blended stuff sold most everywhere else. This provides a far cheaper solution than using VP race gas for trips around the block and a far simpler (and less smoky) solution than pouring Seafoam or another additive in your tank.

 

-P

[WestTexasS2K]

Thanks that's helpful

[phowie50]

Saw this article in today's news and it again made me think of this thread: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70K0DJ20110121

 

I promise not to revive it again until the day comes that I can pump whiskey from my local Shell station.

 

-p

[danilo]

Nice.. in the land of the Not so Free, you get even crappier fuels than previously. Although here in Kanada, there is NO ethanol in 91 or 94 Octane.. yet.

[joshesh]

RossD I am very familiar with the performance benifits of ethanol. 7evin and I built his car specifically to run on E85. We researched it for over a year and have been running it for 3 years. You will never get the same mileage running ethanol as you do gasoline I dont car how well you groom the ECU. It takes 40-50% more fuel running on E85. It has performance benifits because it has a very high octane (113) and that is why we can run 15lbs of boost with 11:1 CR on E85 and it makes great power. It does have a induction cooling effect which helps on forced inductin engines.

 

It does come at a cost. We had hard anodize all the aluminum components in the fuel system. The fuel cell in normally aluminum. E85 corrodes the aluminum. We had to find a crosslink polyethaline tank to use for a fuel cell. The fuel pump is double the size needed compared to when you run on gasoline. It also has to be hard anodized. Fuel injectors need to increased to supply the fuel required. We are running 4x1000cc injectors on a 2.2 l motor and we are close to running out of duty cycle on those.

 

The modern flex fuel cars have the provisions to deal with the alcohol. They have plastic fuel cells, plastic fuel lines and sensors that detect the alcohol content to adjust the ecu. Those that buy e85 for the modern vehicle have no concerns with flex fuel vehicle unless it sits for over 90days. The fuel will start phase seperation after 90 days assuming you put in you vehicle when it was fresh. If you bought your fuel from a station that doesnt move alot of fuel the gas can be bad when you put it in the tank. This doesnt even bring up the problem fuel stations are having with the ethanol eating the varnish off the walls of old tanks and pumping into your car. This will get better as time goes on and the tanks eventually get cleaned. There is a big concern that the underground fiberglass tanks will start to leak because the alcohol can disolve fiberglass tanks. You can see this in the boating industry where there has been a massive problem with the fiberglass tanks built into the bottom of the boats are leaking due to ethanol in fuel.

 

My intent on bringing this up is there are a number of guys here that run aluminum side draft carbs and aluminum fuel cells with aluminum fuel lines. They have mechanical fuel pumps with a rubber diaphram or electrical with rubber parts that will eventually fail when exposed to ethanol for extended periods. I assume a large majority of the members here also have string trimmers, leaf blower, lawn mowers and snow blowers, generators, atv's and motorcycles that can impact. Talk to any of the mechanics that work on any of the above items and they will tell you the devestating effects of E10 gasoline. That is assuming you are getting E10. I stated in the first post we have found E50 in tanks that were labeled E10. Matter of fact a mojority of the spots we tested ranged between E10 and E15.

 

Seafoam is a product orignally developed for the boating industry. The engineer that gave our class has been working with ECHO for 30 years. He stated that the Seafoam has showed the best results in all their testing. Echo spent millions of dollars working on the problem over the last few years.

 

I'm surprised that you went so far out of your way to coat all of your aluminum just because you wanted to run e85. I along with hundreds of other evo's and sti's around the country have been using e85 in non-flexfuel vehicles for years now and not one of us has had any of the major corrosion issues you speak of. To back that up I have this link: http://evoempire.org/community/index.php?/topic/11571-fuel-system-after-3-years-on-e85/

 

^ Showing clearly that after 3 years and 50k miles of e85 no corrosion or additional issues. I have now been driving on e85 longer than I have been on 91 oct, the car loves and has not had any of the failures you speak of or are worried about.

 

Just sharing info, but there is lots of myths surrounding ethanol and motors - and I can vouch first hand that it has made no harm and nothing but a bigger grin on my face when I got WOT :hurray:

[joshesh]

Alcohol is a great fuel, but it just isn't the same as gasoline. It's good that MTBE has been removed from fuel, it was starting to show up in water supplies in the NorthEast and that was a terrible thing. It is almost impossible, even for a lab, to remove MTBE from water. Using corn (food) to make fuel is just wrong...

 

It is good they took out MTBE, but you are able to remove it. Check this link out: http://www.ozonesolutions.com/journal/2009/ozone-lab-testing-mtbe-vs-ozone/

 

I currently work in the ozone industry, and cleaning up contaminated groundwater around the U.S. with the use of ozone to clean up things like: MTBE, TBA, TPH and many other VOC's.

[slomove]

I found I can estimate the approximate alcohol content from my fuel gage.

 

This is a capacitive sender in my fuel cell and the alcohol with a much higher dielectric constant results in an apparent higher level reading. I calibrated the fuel gage 8 years ago when alcohol was probably less here in California to show "full" when the tank was actually full.

 

- Over the last few years the gage shows "full" when the tank is almost half empty indicating they increased the alcohol content quite a bit.

 

- When we did our last trip to Wyoming and South Dakota, the gage displayed only 3/4 full when indeed the tank was full to the brim. I suppose they have pretty pure gas.

 

I also noticed I got about 5-10% more highway reach from a tank in Wyoming than I get here in California.

 

Oh well, this is more a matter of scientific interest...nothing I can do about it.