Fuel Cell Bladder/Foam Swap?

[slomove]

I have had a FuelSafe cell (The MSI Birkin Special version) in my car since 2005. No real complaints, no foam disintegration, only a small pinhole weep when really full to the brim from the beginning.

 

Now I have to take the rear end apart for some repairs and I am on the fence if I should replace the fuel cell guts. Supposedly they are only good for about 5 years, at least for purposes of racing which I don't do.

 

On the one hand side I am hesitant to shell out $1000+ or whatever the cost is nowadays to replace something that does not make any trouble. On the other hand I am doing a bit of long distance touring and don't want to get stranded in the middle of nowhere with a leaking cell or foam clogging the fuel pump.

 

I know there is no clear yes or no decision but any opinion?

 

Thanks, GB

[TheDingo8MyBaby]

If your foam hasn't gone bad in 7 years, I don't think you have much to worry about there. It's the ethanol in the gas that tends to eat them up - and usually they end up falling apart much sooner than that if they're going to.

 

Are you sure Fuel Safe will charge you $1000 for a new bladder? I would assume it would be less than that for just the bladder (although maybe the 7 cell is a custom size?). You can also send it back to them for repair and pressure testing, but I suppose you really don't have a new bladder at that point to count on.

 

There are a few other companies that may be more reasonably priced you can send it to as well for repair:

 

http://www.hartwig-fuelcell.com/

 

http://ffc-fuel-bladders.com/?q=repair

 

 

I've also heard of "budget" racers sealing their cells with a product like this: http://www.kreem.com/fueltankliner.html. I can't condone it, but you could throw it in your bag of tools on long trips just in case.

[dvl]

Harmon Racing Cells in Laguna Beach, CA recently built a new bladder for my Fuel Safe "Lotus 7" fuel cell. They did an excellent job and the total price was around $800, including the addition of an in-tank collector box. They are a small shop of at least one prior Fuel Safe employee. Anyway, I hope this info helps. I found their business while hunting around for shops to inspect and/or replace my bladder.

http://harmonracingcells.com

 

Dave

[MoPho]

Shortly after I bought my 7 I had to replace the foam after it deteriorated and gummed up the fuel filter causing my fuel pump to eat itself which then send a million tiny pieces of aluminum into the fuel lines which then borked my injectors. Took months to get it all sorted out. The foam replacement was less than $100 though it was a PITA to cut and fit all the pieces in the bladder

 

And now just 4 years to the day since I replaced the foam the car is having problems again and it looks like I am having to pull the tank. I don't want to deal with this again so can I run the fuel cell without the foam?

 

Also I had read that some people use wiffle balls instead of foam

[Croc]

I have heard the wiffle ball treatment but I have also heard that the ethanol content in todays gas dissolves them over time. Not sure I would want the risk of wiffle ball plastic running through my engine? Either way it is not something I ever ran to ground.

 

This is what I used to use in Australia on my race cars after the foam decided to break up:

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/fuel-tank-baffles/demon-tweeks-easy-pour-fuel-tank-baffle

 

I could not readily find a US supplier but I bet there is one with a bit of searching.

[MoPho]

I have heard the wiffle ball treatment but I have also heard that the ethanol content in todays gas dissolves them over time. Not sure I would want the risk of wiffle ball plastic running through my engine? Either way it is not something I ever ran to ground.

 

This is what I used to use in Australia on my race cars after the foam decided to break up:

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/fuel-tank-baffles/demon-tweeks-easy-pour-fuel-tank-baffle

 

I could not readily find a US supplier but I bet there is one with a bit of searching.

 

 

Thanks Mike, I will look into those. How much does one need of that stuff in a 55l tank though?

 

 

I've been reading about the wiffle balls and can't seem to find an answer as to whether or not they would break down

[Croc]

Thanks Mike, I will look into those. How much does one need of that stuff in a 55l tank though?

 

It says they are sold in 10.5l lots so 5 times 10.5 gets you pretty close to 55 litres allowing for a fuel pick up unit displacement within the tank.

 

One thing I am not sure of...is your fuel pump like the in-unit Caterham ones or was it relocated when you went to fuel cell? I bet it is outside now but no harm in asking. This would be a factor in considering how many of these pellet tthingys you need.

[slomove]

Interesting stuff. Looks like somebody crushed and rolled aluminum foil into small balls. Maybe I should hire a kindergarten class to make a few gallons of that

 

I am wondering, if that crumpled structure will release all the fuel when drained or keep some captured.

[MoPho]

It says they are sold in 10.5l lots so 5 times 10.5 gets you pretty close to 55 litres allowing for a fuel pick up unit displacement within the tank.

 

One thing I am not sure of...is your fuel pump like the in-unit Caterham ones or was it relocated when you went to fuel cell? I bet it is outside now but no harm in asking. This would be a factor in considering how many of these pellet tthingys you need.

 

 

I was hoping I didn't need to fill the entire tank with these, it's going to be over $400 :ack:

Haven't been able to find it in the US yet

 

 

Pump is relocated outside the cell, as is the fuel filter.

 

Would love to get rid of the cell or get a smaller one, it takes up the entire boot

 

 

Maybe I should hire a kindergarten class to make a few gallons of that

 

No kidding!

[joshesh]

I found this place out of California that sells this type of foam for a more reasonable price. http://www.eti-fuelcel.com/Bafflefoam.html

[MoPho]

Good find, the small foam cubes would be a lot easier than what I had to do last time which was one big piece that I had to cut up and try and fit into the tank.

Will have to consider this, for the price of the aluminum I could do this 4 times

 

Thanks

[ptrxly]

I found out the hard way about the foam anti slosh baffles in Jaz fuel tanks. I used Sunoco fuels that had a high ethanol content and ended up with plugged injectors in my Busa motor. They were cleaned at a bike shop and was informed by the mechanic that he had previously experienced ethanol disolving foam baffles. So the baffles were removed and I have had no issues since. Fuel sloshing has not been a problem on track days either.

[MoPho]

So finally had the chance to tackle the issue today and it turns out it wasn't the foam after all. Pulled the filter out and there were a few particles of foam stuck in it, but nothing to cause the fuel starvation. So at this point we took out some of the foam in the tank and discovered that the fuel pick up hose that runs across the bottom of the tank had broken off (which explains why I was getting more starvation issues when making right turns).

 

It was also a good thing this happened because we discovered that many of the rivets holding my floor up had broken and I was in danger of falling through the car

 

And no, I don't weigh that much. There was some mods made earlier in the cars life for a support bracket that holds the high capacity fuel pump up under the driveshaft and some of the rivets had been removed for that bracket, which seems to have led to the others breaking little by little over time. I don't know how I had not noticed this before, especially since I had the seats out a few months ago to install new belts :banghead:

 

 

 

.

[Arya Ebrahimi]

Deteriorating foam is a common issue in the 4x4 racing world.

 

A new product on the market that has demonstrated its superiority to foam in this regard are these plastic baffles available from all-tech motorsports. http://www.alltechmotorsports.com/

 

They are just round cylinders made out of some type of plastic that is unaffected by today's fuels. They're being run with great success in many offroad race cars, so I'd imagine our road cars would benefit from them as well.

 

I don't have any affiliation with Wayne at All-tech, I'm just a believer in his products.

[slomove]

I had the fuel cell out (for unrelated reasons) and replaced the fuel filter. I cut open the old one and as can be seen below, there are no foam particles in there whatsoever. That means the foam is holding up well after all the years. I am definitely not going to replace it for now.

 

[Kitcat]

If it ain't broke....

 

And, separately, as MoPho noted, Caterhams have what I will call a "self lowering" floor system. So all you Caterham owners mite want to look at the rivets holding your butt upright. I know my driver's side rivets all started to go south and had to be replaced. A problem I noted only because I had the car up for other repairs.

[MoPho]

I had the fuel cell out (for unrelated reasons) and replaced the fuel filter. I cut open the old one and as can be seen below, there are no foam particles in there whatsoever. That means the foam is holding up well after all the years. I am definitely not going to replace it for now.

 

 

 

Well I spoke too soon above. After fixing the broken hose in the fuel cell we couldn't get the car to run right. Discovered the injectors were clogged up, so cleaned everything out and it ran great for about two minutes and then the injectors clogged again. Sent the injectors out for professional cleaning, flushed the fuel system, cleaned the rail, got the car running great, took a drive and 40 miles later they clogged up again.

People keep telling me it is the foam, but like Gert, there was no foam particles in the filter. It's been 5 week(ends) of working on this now :banghead:

 

 

The only thing I can think of if not the foam is that perhaps when I was having the fuel starvation issues going around corners the fuel pump was grinding itself and when we drained the fuel lines it loosened those bits up and into the lines

[slomove]

I would disconnect the fuel rail and let the pump squirt a few seconds into a glass. Maybe you can see with a magnifier at least what the enemy is (metal or else).

 

For that matter I have two fuel filters. The one in the picture (cheap universal filter from Autozone) on the sucking side to prevent debris clogging the pump and a high pressure filter on the pump outlet to protect the injectors if the pump should act up.

[jlumba81]

Try putting an in line fuel filter that has a reusable filter just before the fuel rail. Easier to clean/change out the filter than to get the injectors unclogged. Just add enough fuel hose so you can mount the filter for easy access.

[MoPho]

I have filters both before and after the pump ( just before the rail) and we ran about a gallon of gas through the system but couldn't find anything. We're going to try and do it again