jlumba81 Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Finally getting around to swapping out the 1st gear. Does anyone know the size of the 5th gear retaining nut? Edit: Using a dial caliper it looks like its a 1 1/2" 12 point nut. Just want to confirm if its a standard or metric nut. Edited February 22, 2013 by jlumba81 Remembered I had a dial caliper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelD Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I don't know if this will help but here is a link to a T-9 manual http://mjdtopsites.com/images/type_9-N_gearbox.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yeah I got that already it doesn't mention the nut size. I got a 1 1/2" socket and its slightly large. Right now I'm modifying a puller to get the 5th gear sychro off. The manual says to "slide the 5th gear sychro off" and its not happening even w some heat on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball7754 Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 This may be helpful: http://my.voyager.net/~quadrant19/Gearbox-upgrade.html Believe Cherik is a member here, although not sure how often he checks in. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskossie Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 jlumba, bsimon on theUSA7s list may be able to help. I believe he has had his Type 9 apart a few times -- and he runs a custom machine shop; so he knows nut sizes.... Shoot him a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 The twelve point nut on the end of the lay shaft is ether 36mm or 38mm, I can't recall exactly. An 1-1/2" socket will dink it off without much agricultural evidence. I'm assuming the stuck part is the fifth gear cone/dog hub... There's a circlip retaining the hub on the shaft. Once this is removed, the hub should slide right off. Circlips can sometimes be a bitch to remove. You may have inadvertently buggered the corners of the splines adjacent to the circlip groove. Maybe A bit of metallic trash in the groove? Other than that, I can't think of why it would not slide right off. Are you swapping in a welded up layshaft and first gear from BGH or something more exotic like a Quaife fully splined gearset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) ok I'll go get a 36mm since the 1 1/2" is just a bit large. I got the circlip off but it won't slide off easily. I'll try pushing the sychro back on (only managed to move it 1/4") and check the grooves. I got a 2.98:1 1st gear conversion kit from Burton back in 2011 and finally getting around to putting it in. Edited February 24, 2013 by jlumba81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Nice bit of kit. It looks as though the revised first gear is splined to the layshaft as opposed to being welded on. It sounds like your car had the 3.65 first gear ratio. You're gonna love having a useful first gear. Check the balk rings while the case is open. Type-N gearboxes wear these rather fast, especially if you don't match revs on the downshift. Check the magnet ring in the sump for broken parts as well. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelD Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Geoorge Alderman at MidAtlantic Caterham will likely know what you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 I also have some bearings, sychro cones, hd synchro inserts, and seals/gaskets. Got them together to save on shipping. Probably will replace the 2/3 synchro while I'm in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted March 9, 2013 Author Share Posted March 9, 2013 Ok stupid issue that I should have noticed earlier. The new counter shaft/lay shaft is the earlier style that uses needle bearings. The original is the later model that uses roller bearings. Is there a way to use the earlier style? I don't think I have a local machine shop that can bore out the earlier style to fit the new style roller bearings. Ah, looking around it seems I might be able to use an earlier style layshaft spindle. Would that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted March 9, 2013 Author Share Posted March 9, 2013 Should have payed more attention to Cherik's webpage. Guess I'll look around for a willing machine shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Sounds as though you have a heavy duty gearbox from a 2.8l V6 ford. This gearbox is more commonly found in Caterham applications than the std duty 4 cylinder 'box. There are exceptions depending on what parts individual builders may have sourced for bare Caterham kits. The heavy duty type 9 has a two piece layshaft spindle. The front half bolts to the front of the case with three SHCSs. First gear will be 3.36 not 3.65. The other gear ratios are different as well. It looks as though the Burton kit in the weblink was designed for the standard duty 4 cylinder Ford gearbox. I may be wrong, but the v6 input shaft has a different tooth count than the 4 cylinder input shaft. If so, it won't mesh with the layshaft drive gear on the Burton kit. Even if there is a way of adapting the new layshaft to your case, you had better start counting teeth before spending any time machining parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted March 9, 2013 Author Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) ok thanks for the head up. EDIT: Just finished counting the teeth. Except for the 1st gear they are the same. Edited March 9, 2013 by jlumba81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Good show. Looking through some old files, I found a copy of Classic Ford's article on type 9s. There is a photo of a sleeved 4 cylinder layshaft spinde adapted to fit V6 bearings and layshafts. After seeing that, I believe you could work backwards and bore the layshaft cluster to fit the larger bearing. The surface of the bore needs to be a very high finish to prevent premature wear from the caged rollers. A final ID grind or honing would be necessary. I can send you a copy of the article if you send me a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I have a better idea. Since your layshaft cluster is set up for the 4 cylinder spindle, rather than modifing the cluster, just replace the spindle with the 4 cylinder version. You would need to have a machine shop turn up a steel bushing with the proper size hole to replace the stub shaft in the front of the case. The new part would look like a cut-off stub shaft with a hole in it. The material specification would not be critical as nothing is turning within the bushing. If the hole in the bushing is made blind, you won't have the problem of having the spindle marching out into the void in the bell housing. Here's the part you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 Seems like there's only one shop in town that may be able to machine the gearset. Unfortunately most of the machining work is farmed down to Seattle or shipping costs are so high that its cheaper to get new parts. So it all depends on what the shop can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 Well the local shop was a bust. Didn't like when the guy said, "Well I just started here and I'm not sure how to put it on the machine." Sent it up to Anchorage, AK and had my cousin check a few shops. That didn't work out either. Found this on the Burton website that looks like a combination of stub shaft and lay shaft spindle. Similar to what bsimon mentioned. If that fits I still need the needle spacer rings that go on either side of the needle bearings. I don't suppose anyone has any extras? I'm still waiting for an email reply from bearingkits.co.uk since they don't have list any shipping options outside of the UK and Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted June 15, 2013 Author Share Posted June 15, 2013 Update: Still a work in progress. Realized that the teeth angle of the new gear is slightly different than the original gear. While it meshes together its not close enough to allow the gear to align properly. So I ended up looking around for the manufacturer who supplied the part to Burton Power. Sp Components ltd makes the gear and they have the correct V6 gear set. Even better is that the modified v6 1st gear has a ratio of 2.74:1 vs the modified v4 ratio of 2.98:1. After a month of waiting they finally told me that they will get some in supply soon (they had the mainshaft gears, but needed to get the layshafts machined to fit the new gear.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlumba81 Posted June 15, 2013 Author Share Posted June 15, 2013 Got a reply back: "Ten new 2.8 lay gears went to the gear cutters yesterday. I will find out next week when they will be done." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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