7 Replica Manufacture

[preventec47]

It would be nice if with all the posted messages,  the year was shown as well as the month and day.   Why in the world would the year info be excluded ?

[CharlesG]

If the posts were made in the current year, then the year is not shown. Older posts will show the year.

[Snail]

I know it's a 3 year old thread.

Many of us are in the shoes of Ian Ashdown. Any wonder if this materialised?

[Ian7]

I'm just finding this 3 year old thread and wondering if anything came out of it.

I'll also add I'm in the apparent minority of those who WOULD prefer a more affordable clone, rather than the incomprehensible (to me) current Caterham prices.

I've had 3 (two low spec older Caterhams and a clone), all of which were a blast. Hard to think the top spec Cat's are 5x more fun, especially in normal road use.

I'm looking hard at this at the moment, shipping and tariffs being explored:

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/19174225

[IamScotticus]

I think going forward, any new viable fun kit car that is streetable should be an electric vehicle.  Oh, the horror!

Heres your problem with the 7, and other 7-like kits..  the newer generation isn't into vintage.  They don't want anything difficult to understand, sort through, greasy or smelly. They want to push a button, go fast and and upload the video on Instagram.  They want something easy to title and register.

The problem with 7s, and the problem Caterham has, is the pool of suitable engine and driveline options is running out.  Its almost not worth the effort to start a ICE project from a clean sheet anymore because your planned powerplant and driveline wont be available, or even legal, in ten years.

 

If you were to do a Kit car today, the best option for spares is a mid-engine. I know, its hard to make a mid engine attractive. Thats why I say electric; there are more options for moving the components around to suit the shape of the car.  The majority of the bulk being the batteries (for now) can go up front and the motor/s can go in rear. or front+rear. More options with EV parts.  And they will be hitting the scrap yards soon.

Edited Friday at 03:55 PM by IamScotticus

[williamwashere]

Oh man, I disagree on your assessment of "the youth" and what they're interested in. The newer generation is DEFINITELY into vintage. Vintage shops are all the rage, calling something "polyester" is saying it's fake and inauthentic, look at the backlash to AI in general. I see a lot of kids at the local high school buying Kei trucks because they're cool. I just don't think it's a fuel/powertrain thing, it's a price thing for the youth.

 

You're totally right on the lack of powertrains though, that's a way bigger problem. The biggest bonus for running an EV conversion these days is the size of the packaging, it means you can fit more horsepower in a smaller package (see axial flux motors that are finally getting made), they'll be more interchangeable between vehicles, and that's going to open up a lot of options.

[Snail]

25 minutes ago, IamScotticus said:

I think going forward, any new viable fun kit car that is streetable should be an electric vehicle.  Oh, the horror!

Heres your problem with the 7, and other 7-like kits..  the newer generation isn't into vintage.  They don't want anything difficult to understand, sort through, greasy or smelly. They want to push a button, go fast and and upload the video on Instagram.  They want something easy to title and register.

The problem with 7s, and the problem Caterham has, is the pool of suitable engine and driveline options is running out.  Its almost not worth the effort to start a ICE project from a clean sheet anymore because your planned powerplant and driveline wont be available, or even legal, in ten years.

 

If you were to do a Kit car today, the best option for spares is a mid-engine. I know, its hard to make a mid engine attractive. Thats why I say electric; there are more options for moving the components around to suit the shape of the car.  The majority of the bulk being the batteries (for now) can go up front and the motor/s can go in rear. or front+rear. More options with EV parts.  And they will be hitting the scrap yards soon.

Yeah I hear you.

 

I don't think this class of car, ICE or EV, has anything to do with Instagram and influencers, and I understand today's appeal towards 'driver's cars' has taken a sad turn towards social validation rather than the experience.

 

That said, I actually don't think making a new-gen EV kit is a sacrilege. Not appealing to traditionalists? Absolutely, and I'm not going to pretend it doesn't bother me. But I'm be curious just how light, analogue and cheap one could build a driver's car. Our current crop of EV batteries suck, given their weight.

 

Then there's also Sustain fuels (or carbon neutral fuels) which I think makes sense for these sorta of applications.

 

You bring up an excellent point with regards to engine choices on the markets, as the simple ones are dwindling. I'd love to see an open-sourced 3D printed high-temp plastic casting moulds so that anyone woth some casting and machining knowledge could make some fresh engine parts compatible with 2.0 Ford/Mazda Zetec/MZR engines.

 

ok pipe dream over haha

[IamScotticus]

30 minutes ago, Snail said:

EV batteries suck, given their weight.

This should change eventualy.

EV tech is moving very quickly in Asian and Europe. This progress isnt available in the USA as its being blocked by trade restrictions.  And for good reason.

***Thread hack alert***!  The first viable sub-$20K EV to be available here will kill off everything else (hyperbole).

Of course, some people will still buy Audis, SAABs and Mercedes yuppie wagons, for some reason.

But the vast majority will go for affordable basic transportation, again.

 

And I believe this is Paul Elio's failure, he tried to build an ICE vehicle from the start. He didn't start exploring the EV option till he was out of money.

Edited Friday at 04:52 PM by IamScotticus

[Ian7]

Can't say I disagree with the electrification aspect, nor am I against it.

(Just totally on the other side of the fence against the current crop of 800hp 5000# $80k behemoths).

(but I also understand why: no viable long-term business model in the USA for small low-profit-margin electric cars; dealers have always survived through their service and finance departments)

That said, why is it so hard to find info on caterham's in-house electric program? a few renderings are available, and a few "just a design study" comments.

 

Edited Friday at 06:38 PM by Ian7

[Snail]

5 minutes ago, Ian7 said:

Can't say I disagree with the electrification aspect, nor am I against it.

(Just totally on the other side of the fence against the current crop of 800hp 5000# $80k behemoths).

(but I also understand why: no viable long-term business model in the USA for small low-profit-margin electric cars; dealers have always survived through their service and finance departments)

That said, why is it so hard to find info on caterham's in-house electric program? a few renderings are available, and a few "just a design study" comments.

 

I know we're chitchatting for the sake of it, but Ford's Mustang, with the 2.3 Ecoboost, is literally a Duratec and they'll be producing their 6-speed manual for at least the next generation.

 

I don't think there are shortages of gas-powered powertrains in North America.

 

but there are also tons of Teslas from which I'd love to pick apart and build an ultra-loghtweight affordable backroad carver.

[Slonie]

1 hour ago, Ian7 said:

That said, why is it so hard to find info on caterham's in-house electric program? a few renderings are available, and a few "just a design study" comments.

Well, Caterham Project V is moving along and has a driving prototype now (with more production-ready details compared to the roller showcar). The powertrain is being developed with Yamaha as a partner. I’ve been updating a thread about it every time I see new info…

 

But If you’re talking about EV seven (circa 2023), that’s really only been a one-off proof of concept from Caterham. I think they’ll place the majority of their effort on the Project V first, but in the longest of runs I would very much expect to see them revisit the electric Seven. 

 

[Slonie]

“Once we get lighter-weight batteries, it’s game on…”

 

—me, always about the one real problem with EV sports cars. Now I realize Caterham literally said that in the screenshot I posted. They’ll do a real Seven EV when it can be light enough. 

[IamScotticus]

2 minutes ago, Slonie said:

Well, Caterham Project V is moving along and has a driving prototype now (with more production-ready details compared to the roller showcar). The powertrain is being developed with Yamaha as a partner. I’ve been updating a thread about it every time I see new info…

 

But If you’re talking about EV seven (circa 2023), that’s really only been a one-off proof of concept from Caterham. I think they’ll place the majority of their effort on the Project V first, but in the longest of runs I would very much expect to see them revisit the electric Seven. 

 

the problem...Caterham has a set of figures a EV7 must meet or they can't sell it.  That's what the bean counters tell the ex-auto industry executives who believe them because they don't gamble.  Cat could make a fun, although low Milage, 7 now. no, it won't be the race car they sell to the software engineers. but it will go like stink.  they don't think they can sell that.  no, they can't for £45k, but possibly for £30k, and the aftermarket will offer up the improvements.

look what happened to bicycles! they all have motors and batteries now.

[Slonie]

I don’t know if the OP is long gone at this point but now that I’ve gone back and read the top post I’ll weigh in with my four cents (many of which have already been reiterated here). If I were going into business making a new boutique car I would not try to copy a 7*. Could you make a 7esque car that’s “better”? Maybe. Would it sell? Who knows. 
 

With the OP’s background I’d go for more of a budget Mono or a budget Radical/sports racer than another 7 clone.

 

*here’s my one exception to this: a domestic focused Locost style kit using a domestically plentiful parts would find a market. My imagination was captured in 2004-5 when Champion Motorcars cropped up and offered a cheap chassis kit for a Miata donor. That sent me down the Locost rabbit hole and made it seem possible as a non-fabricator to get my own 7. I eventually gave up on it (much like CMC seemed to go belly-up almost immediately—I wonder how many kits/chassis they actually sold?), but an affordable point of entry is a real selling point IMO. This kind of dovetails with the thinking that probably went into the Goblin — domestic chassis and plentiful domestic donor parts. I just can’t abide by how they look 😆 

[IamScotticus]

27 minutes ago, Slonie said:

just can’t abide by how they look 😆 

yes, darn fugly.  I assume they couldn't do anything that had already been done so it was the compromise.

Edited Friday at 08:45 PM by IamScotticus

[speedwagon]

21 hours ago, IamScotticus said:

I think going forward, any new viable fun kit car that is streetable should be an electric vehicle.  Oh, the horror!

Heres your problem with the 7, and other 7-like kits..  the newer generation isn't into vintage.  They don't want anything difficult to understand, sort through, greasy or smelly. They want to push a button, go fast and and upload the video on Instagram.  They want something easy to title and register.

The problem with 7s, and the problem Caterham has, is the pool of suitable engine and driveline options is running out.  Its almost not worth the effort to start a ICE project from a clean sheet anymore because your planned powerplant and driveline wont be available, or even legal, in ten years.

 

If you were to do a Kit car today, the best option for spares is a mid-engine. I know, its hard to make a mid engine attractive. Thats why I say electric; there are more options for moving the components around to suit the shape of the car.  The majority of the bulk being the batteries (for now) can go up front and the motor/s can go in rear. or front+rear. More options with EV parts.  And they will be hitting the scrap yards soon.

I totally agree with you. but soon ticking over 85 I have 10 rotaries in my container, and my "give-a-shitter" don't work no more.  john

[IamScotticus]

1 hour ago, speedwagon said:

I totally agree with you. but soon ticking over 85 I have 10 rotaries in my container, and my "give-a-shitter" don't work no more.

I know the feeling 

Edited yesterday at 03:03 PM by IamScotticus