T9 question: gearbox mount location

[Steve in Lititz PA]

Hello all,

 

this is my first time posting so I beg your indulgence; perhaps this question has been answered and I missed it.

 

I have a 1985 Caterham Sprint, third owner, and the car appears to be generally unnmolested from the original build by Marcos Cars.  It has a Ford four-speed T2 gearbox with integral bell housing.  For several reasons I am converting to a T9 gearbox and am assembling the various grubbins to do it, and am wondering what, if any, modifications must be made to the chassis.  I was wondering:

1.  Will the existing gearbox mount location remain where it is, or must it be repositioned?

2.  will the existing T2 gearbox mount "bolt right up" to the T9, ie, do I need a different type mount?

 

Since there are several in the forum who have done the switch, I don't think I am breaking new ground, and none of the tech discussion I've read mentioned it.  So I'm hoping there was no reason to mention it.

 

Thanks in advance, happy motoring!

 

Steve Rineer

Lititz, PA

[7Westfield]

I converted a T3 to T9 a couple of years ago

 

I had to use the mount from the t3, as the t9 mount was too wide to go in the tunnel

 

the frame plate will likely have to move back   if IIRC, the distance from front of gearbox to mount was about 5" more for the t9

also the t9 is fatter at the back end of the box itself

 

I assume it's a Ford engine, I used the BH3 bellhousing from Burton, and the shifter came up perfectly in the old location

I used the concentric clutch slave unit

do you have the correct input shaft on your t9?    you need the short one   you can modify the long one

the front end of the input shaft should be even with the front of the bellhousing for a xflow engine

 

Charlie

[IamScotticus]

I'm piecing together a T9 swap as well.

My 96 Cat has a mount plate installed that should ocomoddate a T9.  It's the plate you should get from Cat, Arch or Red Line.

 

You will be using the 1600's flywheel, clutch cover and throw out bearing.

Get a new clutch cover, Borg & Beck CP2624/1,  

Get your flywheel balanced (with the cover on) and surfaced.

 

The clutch disc is a specialty item not standard on any car, except the Nash metropolitan, possibly.  It will be a 1600's seven 1/2  inch 190mm diameter with a Pinto 2.0's 1X23 spline. AP 47238 

 

You need the reduced diamter (34mm) bearing slide from Burton or take yours to a machine shop to get it turned down to allow a 1600 release bearing to fit over it.

 

If you have the long shaft (no jokes) V6 T9 (the one Cat used) get a 1" spacer (Burton again) that goes between the box and bell and make sure there is a cut-out in the spacer for the layshaft end cap. 

 

If using a centric clutch release, on a V6 T9 you may need a spacer for that too.

 

Note that the threads in the engine block will be imperial and the threads in the bellhousing will probably be metric.

 

The pilot/spigot bearing is the same and the input shaft tip on a V6 T9 may need to be cut back a small amount, I read 10mm.  Deal with this before you get to the final bolting together.

 

Get a quality input shaft spline grease.  There's a specific tacky grease made for the release bearing and disc to slide on.

 

Don't shoot any lubrication or Solvent onto the pilot bearing!

They're pre-packed with grease.

 

If using a cable, get a fork that goes with the bell.

I'm not an expert on BHs but I believe the iron Sierra with a right side cable is most common. 

 

TracSport in UK has a variety of T9 stuff and bells.

Gear kits too, which is something to consider because 1st gear is so low.  A gear kit made for 7s evens ratios out to drive like a normal car.   That's why the T2 is so nice, it's already perfect ratios.  Steve Perks (TracSport) supplied reconditioned T2s and Ital Axles to Cat in the 90s so he's  the guru.

 

Also, in the build manual for xflow T9, it says to make a spacer between the mount and bracket.  Not sure why.

 

I read somewhere that T9 require RS2000 cable.  Not sure why.  I will find out.

 

See:

 

https://www.classicfordmag.co.uk/tech/gearbox-tech-ford-type-9-five-speed-guide/

 

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103512

 

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103512&page=3

 

http://www.topdocsracing.com

 

https://www.caterhamlotus7.club/guides/maintenance/pre-loading-clutch-release-bearing-crb-cable-clutches

 

 

 

 

 

Pics from Bearingkits.co.uk

 

Here is a Red Line parts list I stole from a poster here:

 

REDLINE CLUTCH PARTS LIST
Clutch Plate - Helix 190X23 - 70-1605
Clutch release bearing -Helix - 40-2482
Clutch cover - Helix High Performance - T9 - 60-3329
Spigot bearing - 30E108A
Pivot Pin - 6022530
Clutch alignment tool - T-9- AT13T
Seal - crankshaft rear Xflow - NA793
Gasket Rear cover Xflow - 5028796
Front Seal Gearbox- 1602036
Gasket bellhousing to T9 (early) - 1632552

[Steve in Lititz PA]

Hello, Charlie, and thanks for your reply.

 

I guess I'll be using my existing T2 mount since you pointed out the T9 mount is too wide, and thanks for the "heads up" about repositioning the frame plate; forewarned is fore-armed

 

Yes, it's a Ford crossflow, started life as a 1600, but ended up a 1700; Burton advised the BH11 bellhousing; my T9's donor was apparantly the V6 Essex/Cologne, with the longer input shaft.  About 10 mm, per Burton,  must be ground off, and I need to add Burton's BH3-28 1" spacer plate

 

I would be delighted if the shifter came up in the old location!

I will be using same hydraulic clutch arrangement as in a Lotus Elan, I am somewhat familiar with it, and when I confessed my ignorance to the Burton folks, that's what they suggested.

 

I did a "speeds in gears" comparison between the existing T2 vs T9, 1st is almost identical, there's a slightly bigger drop in 2nd & 3rd, but really not too bad, 4th is the same for both, and 5th gear drops almost 600 rpm from 4th...for the few times it's on a highway type of road, it should be less buzzy.

 

Thanks again for your reply, your informaton was very helpful.

 

 

[Steve in Lititz PA]

Hello, Scottius, and thanks for your very comprehensive reply!

 

One reason for the T2 to T9 swap is that the original owner requested Caterham to convert from a cable clutch to hydraulic; but there isn’t really a suitable place to attach the hydraulic slave cylinder, and I’ve gone through four of them in my limited ownership; it leaks, I believe,  because of mis-alignment.  I don’t think my clutch problem was completely hydraulic related, I think it was also clutch fork to release bearing related, but regardless, the lump was coming out to fix it, and I had a previously acquired T9 in  storage.  I figured I may as well use it.  I asked Burton Power for their advice, and they gave me a list of everything needed for the swap; were I to do the research and assemble the requirements myself, it would likely be Christmas…next year.  And since all the clutch hardware was already set up for a hydraulic clutch, I figured running a hydraulic line is easier than running cable (I may be wrong about this), and now the slave cylinder will be on the same side of the bell housing as the clutch master cylinder, as opposed to now, where the master cylinder is naturally on the left driver side, and the slave cylinder was located on the right side.  I do think that the original build sheet should have retained the cable clutch, but that’s water over the dam.

 

I’ll spend the next few days comparing your parts list to Burton’s…the clutch disk I am using is Burton’s C784AF, 190 mm, 1x23 splines, and Burton mentioned that the bearing carrier must be bored out about 0.010 to fit the larger nose….also, since my T9 apparently came out of a V6 donor, about 10mm must be ground off from the input shaft, and I need Burton’s 1” spacer, BH3-28.  Presumably, this will move the shifter aft 1”, that’s tolerable, maybe even better; we’ll see.  Burton suggested their BH11 aluminum bell housing, you know add lightness.

 

You mentioned gear kits, I computed overall ratios of my existing T2 vs my T9 and found that 1^st gear is essentially identical for both…and 2^nd & 3^rd gears in the T9 is slightly taller than the T2, with 4^th being the same.  So with 5^th gear being about 580 rpm lower than 4^th  at 60 mph I think I’ll be pleased with the way it compares with the T2.

 

Could you provide a link to the build manual for xflow T9, I haven’t run across that, and I’m sure it would be helpful.

 

Your response was WAY more than I could have dreamed, thanks very much.

 

Steve Rineer

Lititz, PA

 

[7Westfield]

if you don't want the shifter moved back, you can shorten the v6 input shaft enough so that the spacer between t9 and bellhousing is not needed

that's what I did   took about 15 minutes

 

I used the BH3 bellhousing, mostly because of price    starter on right -intake- side   had to cut away most of the left side starter mount to get clearance in the tunnel   Titan concentric slave unit, but if you're keeping the standard release mechanism BH11 looks good

 

don't forget you'll need a new propshaft

Edited July 20, 2023 by 7Westfield

[Steve in Lititz PA]

7Westfield, thanks for your response

 

as long as the shifter doesn't move forward, or aft more than one or two inches, I'll be happy.  Regarding having to cut away some of the left side starter mount, so much of re-engineering something is to discover what you got, when you get there.  A variation in one company, eg, Lotus, Caterham, Birken, Westfield may change what one needs to do with a major change like engine/gearbox, etc, in fact almost anything 7 related because of the tight packaging.  But that also applies to all of our "smaller" cars from the past, and looking at the packaging of engine bays in newer cars, it's only gotten tighter.

 

Roger about the driveshaft, too, that change is already in the conceptual area, and proves that a change in one thing, eg gearbox, affects other parts of the package.  Which is one reson why I commented in an earlier post that I would be delighted if the shift lever didn't move at all.

 

steve rineer

 

 

 

[IamScotticus]

Steve, 

My mother said I was almost named Steve...

 

You say you like the gear shift position now?  Do you have that remote shifter contraption Cat used?  It's a very common solution to the short shifter turret location.  I haven't seen a Xflow with a T2 that didn't have a remote shifter...

All the Xflow/T9 combos I've ever seen place the shifter directly under the instrument panel tube.  I believe Cat sold them this way.

I am planning on using the remote with the T9.  I won't have that flick shift,  but the position will be correct 

 

You said Burton says to bore our your bearing?  They already sell the solution for this:

https://www.burtonpower.com/quaife-alloy-nose-cone-with-steel-over-tube-type-9-5-speed-gbt9509.html

 

I have to say, with the complications of the external slave, why not do the centric slave?

 

Also, have you considered ditching the speedo cable for a GPS speedo or other sensor activated speedo?

 

BIN THE SPEEDO CABLE!

Edited July 20, 2023 by IamScotticus

[Steve in Lititz PA]

 

I was born in 1948, back then there was a tendency when naming children to relate to ancestors...my parents balked, or else I might have been Aaron or Fred...no offense to you Aarons or Freds out there.  My dad, however, was named Sheldon (like his uncle), and i suspect I was named Stephen in a small nod to the first name beginning with "S".  Anyway, I am a Stephen, not a Steven, or even a Stephan.

 

Regarding the shifter, it comes up from the tunnel about the same position as the dash...I don't know if that makes it remote or not, I am certainly not the expert you are.  So if I indeed have a remote shifter, because you've never seen a T2 without one, and you're planning on using your T9 with the same type remote shifter, I will be happy again.

 

Yup, the GBT9509 is on my list.  And Burton said the carrier  may have to be bored out 0.010", sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

The complication with the hydraulic clutch was no fault of the hydraulic clutch, it works fine on Elans.  The problem was that the original owner specified he wanted a hydraulic clutch instead of the cable clutch that was fitted to the T2, and with the T2's  integral bell housing, there was no good place to attach the slave cylinder.  It could be done, but i suspect the alinement of the slave piston wasn't perfect, and the seals wear out.  Since I acquired the car about two years ago I've gone through four slave cylinders.  By the way, this is all conjecture on my part, I may be totally wrong.   But in fact, a few days before I picked up the car, the previous owner called to tell me "the clutch is leaking", and he might not have the replacement in before the agreed pick up.  So it's got a history.

 

Some time ago I picked up a T9, so I figured now is the time to put it in, AND solve the hydraulic issue at the same time.  There was already an issue with the clutch fork/release bearing, I could see a chunk of the release bearing was missing, where the fingers of the fork fit into the release bearing, so the whole thing was coming out anyway.  I suspect THAT issue was the result of inept prior mechanical aptitude of the shop that was doing all the work for the previous owner, who apparantly was not mechanically inclined.  The hydraulic master cylinder is already in place, and I am familiar with the clutch arrangement with Lotus Elans, so I went the "familiar" route rather than the centric route.  If you are good at math, you'll figure out that I'll be 75 on my next birthday, so the "Lotus" arrangement only has to last another, what, ten years, or until I'm unable to get out of  the Cat (gravity is working with you getting in), then it will be someone else's decision to change.

 

Regarding the speedo issue, I plan to plug  it, and if it is REMOTELY close to actual, I'll stick with it.  I am assuming that the connection is common between the T2 and T9.  It's a 90 degree fitting, so probably OK.  If not, a GPS or some other arrangement may be a possibiilty, but it won't be a priority.

 

I have several OTHER non-Caterham issues in the fire, I have a few more other Lotus, and regarding the Cat issues, I am looking for the simplest solution to several problems that works.  You know, simplify, then add lightness...can't remember who said that.

 

steve rineer

[IamScotticus]

52 minutes ago, Steve in Lititz PA said:

Yup, the GBT9509 is on my list.  And Burton said the carrier  may have to be bored out 0.010"

I want to understand this because I will be dealing with it myself and it's my first time hearing about it.

The carrier is the plastic housing that the release bearing is set into?  Yes/no?

I didn't have any clearance issues sliding my release bearing on my GBT9509.

Perhaps you're getting a bearing that requires the modification?  Which C.R.B. is specified?

 

You must have a pre-remote car.

[Steve in Lititz PA]

No. 

The Clutch Bearing Carrier/Hub is p/n GB2E208, and from the picture in Burton's catalog is definitely not plastic; in fact, I have one on my bench for my Plus 2 ready to install into that car.  Basically, it holds the Release Bearing.  On Burton's suggestion, I'm getting CRB p/n HD3259.

 

My car is a 1985 and has an extenion above the tailshaft, similar to the T9...on my Plus 2 the shift lever comes directly out of the top lid of the gearbox.  Using your terminology, both my T2 and T9 are "remote" shift gearboxes, while the Plus 2 with the shift lever coming directly out of the top lid, is not.

 

My memory on my conversation with the Burton rep isn't precise...there were many variants of T9 gearboxes, and what with machining variances, perhaps the bearing carrier WILL slide right over my T9 input shaft.  And perhaps some carriers will not, and  if not, then the carrier must be bored out by about 0.010" .

[NSXguy]

I have a type 2 (rebuilt) with an external pull style slave cylinder. I originally thought of converting to T9 (mainly for the overdriven 5th), but frankly after rebuilding my T2 and sorting the hydraulic clutch (fabricated a chassis mount to firmly secure a new speedway slave cylinder), it has been problem free since installation. 

[Steve in Lititz PA]

And I finally did that too, ie, fabricaed a firm mount attached to the bell/block, alinment was good, and with a spacer, location was OK too.

 

But there was another issue going on, as I wrote, regarding the clutch release bearing, with about half of its "slots" for the clutch fork gone.  At startup I'd hear a rasping sound as the fork jumped out of the two slots, and, at that point the slave cyl not perfectly alined (and, possibly, the rod not perfectly adjusted).  And not really certain what was going on with the rest of the assembly.  The whole assembly was coming out to replace the broken parts.  And fabrication and mechanica stuff isn't my strong point...I'm a retired accountant, for goodness sake.  And there is a dearth of real mecnanics around, they're retiring/dying out, and I thought i could do at least as well as those remaining non-mechanic mechanics ot there, at a much cheaper hour rate.

 

And, I had a T9 in storage.  So, like you, I think I had the slave cyl mounting figured out, my last version of the mount was ok, the plate needed an in-out  bend to clear the sump, and a final iteration would have been better. 

 

But I had gotten tired of shifting, and having my foot go to the floor, and limp home shifting with no clutch.  And hearing that loud rasping noise at startup as the clutch fork fingers continued to destroy the release bearing.  So, like many things, the decision was based on, well, many things.  

 

If I didn't have the T9, my decision would likely have been different.  I applaud your solution, mine would have gotten there too, but the difference between your situation and mine was slightly different, so my solution is slightly different.  Do you need a spare T2?

 

Thanks for your comment,

 

steve rineer

 

BTW, Willwood makes a similar "pull" slave.

[IamScotticus]

@Steve in Lititz PA

I have you to thank!  I didn't know I needed that part.

I was wondering where the clips went