Alternate Class for Sevens

[MichaelD]

The recent protest in DM at nationals this year have underscored the need of new class for Sevens or another class that accepts Sevens. I am starting this thread as a place for those of us that are interested to discuss our options.

 

 

 

Please chime in.

 

 

 

MichaelD

[bball7754]

I'm a pretty casual autocrosser, and wasn't aware of this. What was the nature of the protest?

 

 

 

Steve

[MichaelD]

Basically a car was challanged on six points. most of which were on structual changes that amounted to aerodynamic aids. The protest committe said no foul. An appeal was filed and the SEB did not address the claimed violations at all. Instead they said the car still looked like a Seven. basically they ignored the complain and the violation.

 

 

 

That is what occured through my eyes.

 

 

 

In the end I am not upset by the car dbuilder pushing the limits. But I am extreemly disapointed in the lack of action of the SEB.

 

 

 

They did not do their job.

 

 

 

As a result. I will push to have Sevens granted another class to run in. Possible XP since they have already approved FF cobras. A clone with a tube frame.

 

 

 

Anyone else interested?

[slngsht]

Michael, what does the D Mod / E Mod landscape look like currently? What else runs in these classes?

[bball7754]

I'd like another class to run in, but perhaps for different reasons. I run in DM here in St. Louis, but my Caterham is about as "stock" as you can get. I drive to the event, and run with my regular 14" 185/60 Michelin Pilots. The other Sevens in DM are trailered, running 10" slicks, etc., etc.

 

 

 

The closest I've come to their times was within 3.5 seconds. Normally I'm 4-5 seconds back. I would just enjoy being able to run in a class where I could be competitive.

 

 

 

I plan on upgrading tires next year (probably Yoko A032's), but it's not going to get me 4 seconds.

 

 

 

Steve

[calvin]

This is the car that was protested.

 

 

 

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/fia289/IMG_1993.jpg

[locostv8]

Does aerodynamics have any real effect at the speeds the auto crossers see? What was told me was that if you can't find anything else to protest someone who beat you you use aerodynamics. Possibly the answer here is to drop the aerodynamics since my understanding is that Mod is supposed to be a silouette class.locostv82006-10-29 09:13:38

[SD-Jacks]

Good morning...thanks to one of your founders for an invite to this group..

 

I'm the 'nerd' who protested the above car:

 

1)I've run against this car many times..with the car in many 'dresses'

 

2) I was fortunate to the beat the car at Midwest Div. Heartland Park, Topeka in August 2006

 

the protest at Nationals was based on the 2006 Solo rules....the protest dealt mainly with changing the car for aeordynamic purposes...(the protest is long and this is probably not the format to post it..however, if you want it..send your e-mail address to and I'll send a zip file to you)--it will give you some insight to a protest..and an outcome that leaves no one happy

 

My major concern with SCCA, has been the lack of a competive class to run a: Lotus7/7A, Caterham,,etc in, unless, you are willing to cut up the frame,,move the motor to the right,,add aerodynamic aids ,,etc..

 

There are a large number of particularly Seven owners..who treat their car as a person(child) and are unwilling to cut them up to compete. In my opinion, it is the reason that more 7's are not seen at National events.. a 2nd area has been the yearly changes in the rules for D-Mod..the most recent have required adding wt to make the car weigh 1420#s..with driver for 2.0l car...this has resulted in competitors who have had to add almost 300#s to a 950+/Caterham/Zetec...to make the class wt 1420's

 

It would be great if there were SCCA, classes..that would allow original 7's ie motors

 

sorry for the long post...

 

 

 

Lee Mabee (1994 Caterham 1700cc and 2001 Superlight R)

 

both in need of a better driver...

 

 

[MichaelD]

D/E Modified is for Production cars modified in excess of SCCA SOLO II Prepared rules.

 

 

 

2006 D/E Mod cars are devided into "stock tub" and "mod tub."

 

 

 

Stock tub must keep all stock parts between front and rear firewalls/bulkheads.

 

 

 

Mod tubs must keep the original length and width floor pan between front and rear bulkheads.

 

 

 

Both stock and mod tubs may make alterations to the floor pan, frame/subframe for the instalation or relocation of the engine, transmission and exhaust as long as the engine remains in the same half of the car as it was originally.

 

 

 

See current SOLO II rules document.

 

 

 

At Nationals DMod is has a tube frame Lotus Europa, a few Lotus Elans, alot of Sevens. The most modified cars seem to be the Euorpa, two locost Sevens and an Elan Most of the other Sevens are basically stock. If ther is such a car as a stock seven. I guess that is a Seven that has all the parts in their original location and all parts are from a seven manufacturer with a standard set of assembly instructions.

 

 

 

It seems that there are two factions in the class.

 

 

 

1. those that wanr to experiment and modify their cars looking for that extra competitive edge.

 

 

 

2. those that are happy driving a car without making structual or design changes.

 

 

 

Hence the search for other options.

[yellowss7]

I've always wondered why the Caterham was classed as a Modified car, since as bball(steve) pointed out, most of us run "Stock" cars. The engine choice is fairly limited, Crossflows, Zetecs, Rover K series,and now Duratec. All "factory spec" motors.

 

 

 

A Street tire'd car can't compete with a Slick no matter how good the driver, IMHO. Once you start moving the engine, adding aerodynamics, etc. you have a true MOD car.

 

 

 

Question is are there enough "stock 7's to have their own class? Although I think there should be a weight penalty for those Huge 2.0 Liter engines. Those of us with little 1.8 liters and less need a big handicap to equalize things out. http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif   Tom yellowss72006-10-29 10:26:24

[slngsht]

I guess at 5.7 Liters, I'll have to tow a sled behind my car http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif.

 

 

 

Seriously though, I see the point about sevens as defined in Tom's post above having a place to run.

[MichaelD]

Tom,

 

 

 

I think a sliding scale displacement vs weight for all of DM or a Sevens class would be fine. I also feel the aero changes that some people have made generate little if any advantage.

 

 

 

The biggest difference is still driver ability.

[SD-Jacks]

Didn't answer Lococtv8's aerodynamic question....I'm not an aerodynamic expert...so I had previously asked one,,,PhD. Mech Engineering,Aeordynamics..he uses the same Fluent software the big dogs like Ferrari racing use....two of the six protests on the car above.. were the scuttle ( which was raised 2 inch )taller than the 'factory'Locost scuttle...engine bay sealed,,radiator moved to the side..exit ports to create a 'tunnel' and the 2nd was the hood (acting as a spoiler) using the increased angle of attack of the hood...these two combined give only 25#s of downforce at 30mph..but double every 15mph..so at 60mph you get almost 100# of aero (not mech) downforce..so yes it is worth the effort...when you look at the fenders and nosecone air management on the new CSR Caterham...they claim alomost 100#s of downforce..the portion on the wheels is really 'sweet' is this all unsprung

 

when you watch the SCCA SM classes with the bigger rear wings..you really can see the benefit of aerodyanamic aids...even at relatively slow autocross speeds, check out the times of SM SM1,,SM2,,these guys are hard...at least for me to catch....Lee

[yellowss7]

Michael, I agree, driving skills(and slicks) make the difference. Since you kicked my butt last sunday, I have to bow to your superior skills.   http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/cheers2.gif Looking forward to competing against you next season. Tom

[MichaelD]

Should there be a street tire class and a slick class?

[yellowss7]

I'm not going back to street tires. Slicks are too much fun. Unless it rains that is. You could spec r compound DOT tires, but if you run CR500,ACB10's or 032 Street tires you still won't compete with the R compounds.

 

 

 

My thoughts are that a basic seven, unmodified frame, engine placement, are the "Class we're talking about. I don't care if they run a 4,5,6 or sequential gearbox. In Autox one shift is usually it. As for Power/torque to weight ratios, I still think driver skill is the critical factor. Look at the guys that competed last sunday. Did you beat Sam strano's time? He was driving a Camaro BTW.

 

 

 

Most "stock 7's" have either 135-150 or 200-220 hp. Putting the power down is the critical factor, I have 195 hp and I've driven sevens with 135 and personally I think it is easier to drive the lower powered one, since you don't have to worry about breaking the back end loose when you apply the power. Again, skill vs power. Autoxing is not drag racing or top end dependent. Just my opinion. Tom

[locostv8]

Good morning...thanks to one of your founders for an invite to this group..

 

I'm the 'nerd' who protested the above car:

 

1)I've run against this car many times..with the car in many 'dresses'

 

2) I was fortunate to the beat the car at Midwest Div. Heartland Park, Topeka in August 2006

 

the protest at Nationals was based on the 2006 Solo rules....the protest dealt mainly with changing the car for aeordynamic purposes...(the protest is long and this is probably not the format to post it..however, if you want it..send your e-mail address to and I'll send a zip file to you)--it will give you some insight to a protest..and an outcome that leaves no one happy

 

My major concern with SCCA, has been the lack of a competive class to run a: Lotus7/7A, Caterham,,etc in, unless, you are willing to cut up the frame,,move the motor to the right,,add aerodynamic aids ,,etc..

 

There are a large number of particularly Seven owners..who treat their car as a person(child) and are unwilling to cut them up to compete. In my opinion, it is the reason that more 7's are not seen at National events.. a 2nd area has been the yearly changes in the rules for D-Mod..the most recent have required adding wt to make the car weigh 1420#s..with driver for 2.0l car...this has resulted in competitors who have had to add almost 300#s to a 950+/Caterham/Zetec...to make the class wt 1420's

 

It would be great if there were SCCA, classes..that would allow original 7's ie motors

 

sorry for the long post...

 

 

 

Lee Mabee (1994 Caterham 1700cc and 2001 Superlight R)

 

both in need of a better driver...

 

 

This would seem to reinforce the statement "If you can't beat then protest aerodynamics". If the problem is with the classes then maybe the protest should be with SCCA. It seems that if there was a tire limit and weight limit "Stock" 7s should be able to compete in at least a prepared class. I have been away from racing for many years and have debated returning to auto cross, but I'm sure what I'm considering for a mod class wouldn't be very popular.

[yellowss7]

Slngshot, 5.7 liters in a seven, WOW! We'll that's E Mod vs us under 2 liter D Mods. But from my point of view, you have a weight penalty anyway. And again, can you get the power down coming out of turns? It's the balance in the transitions that makes the difference. I feel I have more power than I can use so personally, I won't have any issues running against higher HP cars. So unless your car is as wide as a corvette with 18 inch slicks, I'm cool with it. Tom

[SD-Jacks]

Reply to Locostv8...sorry to spoil your "if you can't beat them..."theory... I had beaten the car in the Mid Div in August.....the protest was made during the Nationals...day #1 in Sept....prior to 2nd day ...as required by the rules...(6 line item rule infractions..that IMHO were out of compliance..).

 

 

 

IT MAYBE NOTEWORTHY; I OFFERED THE DRIVER OF THE PROTESTED CAR THE USE OF MY CAR PRIOR TO THE DECISION OF THE PROTEST COMM., SO IN THE EVENT HIS CAR HE WAS DRIVING WAS DISQUALIFIED,,HE WOULDN'T MISS THE CHANCE TO WIN THE EVENT.(this driver could beat me with a shopping cart).

 

 

 

sorry it wasn't about winning,,but about the rules of the class and how much you can push the envelope

 

you are right the protest is with SCCA...the D-Mod class had protested the rule changes in 2005 and 2006...the real complaint lies with lack of enforcement at National events...short of weighing the car...no other rules are checked....ie displacement,,compliance with safety ie driveshaft hoops..shut off switches..etc...so the only way to address any of the issues is unfortunately by a protest..the class has solicited SEB (solo events board)at SCCA.....I think it will take a bigger contingent of Sevens writing in to SEB to effect any change...

 

this sound like a fun group...hopefully can figure a way to make Tail of the Dragon...work....would be fun to run with this large a group of Sevens...Lee

[slngsht]

Slngshot, 5.7 liters in a seven, WOW! We'll that's E Mod vs us under 2 liter D Mods. But from my point of view, you have a weight penalty anyway. And again, can you get the power down coming out of turns? It's the balance in the transitions that makes the difference. I feel I have more power than I can use so personally, I won't have any issues running against higher HP cars. So unless your car is as wide as a corvette with 18 inch slicks, I'm cool with it. Tom

 

 

 

I definitely can not put the power down (not even going straight, let alone coming out of turns). I just run R compound tires (225 50 R 15s). My car is 16xx lbs. I haven't run head to head with any sevens yet, but I'm sure my car has a long way to go. There is just one advantage to 375 ft.lbs of torque. I start in 2nd gear, and don't need to shift at all - even in 2nd, I have to launch part throttle at about 1500 - 2000 RPM to get decent traction.

 

 

 

I don't think I have been able to crack the throttle 100% open in any autox yet, except maybe at the finish line, so the power is not usable with my tires.

 

 

 

Rotus made Sevens with anything from 4 banger Toyotas to turbo rotory to Rover and small block chevy V8. The LS1 in my car wasn't around when Rotus went out of business.

 

 

 

At what point do we propose the Seven is not a stock seven? Seems like a pretty clear line for the more mainstream Caterhams, Birkins, etc... No so clear for Rotus, or many variation of Locosts?

 

 

 

Michael D has seen my car. It is a very stockish looking Seven (other than the exhaust sound http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif ). If anything, it looks like a massive car compared to a Caterham, which is not a good thing for autox.

 

 

 

I can easily see my car not being considered a normal Seven, which is OK, since I basically autox for fun. I didn't build it for autocross.

 

 

 

The big distinction here to me (this is all new to me) is not even the significance of the aero aids on that car. The underlying issue is that everyone is lumped into a "Mod" category, but many are viewing their cars as not-so-Mod, since you're basically not doing any drastic changes to it.