Alternate Class for Sevens

[locostv8]

Not gonna get into flames enough said.

 

http://wrangler.rutgers.edu/gallery/d/40496-1/donk_001.jpg

 

http://wrangler.rutgers.edu/gallery/d/40498-1/Donkervoort_Nuerburgring_jpgdc_4675581961205569376.jpg

 

This is an example of mods, though I believe these are "Production" Donks. If the car being protested truly had an uncompetitive illegal mod, though you beat him at another race so obviously it wasn't that much an edge, BIG wing for example, then protest that. If there were safety issues or you thought the engine was oversize then protest that. But if the issue was that you didn't like the class rules partly because they wouldn't let you have the advantage of your Superlight R then don't protest a competitor.

 

 

 

I would view your offer as an insult and we would probably have a discussion that could not be verbalized here.

 

locostv82006-10-29 22:49:22

[slngsht]

Jim, let's not focus on the protest, flaming, etc... I'm sure when a protest happens, somebody gets bent out of shape - nature of life.

 

 

 

The question that needs to be answered here is where do run-of-the-mill sevens run?

 

 

 

Using your example above, the equivalent of what's happening in autox is a mass of people show up with basically stock cars to run the track, then someone shows up with with the car pictured above, and cleans the field. That type of difference in performance does not encourage more Sevens turning out for SCCA events.

 

 

 

When I take my vette autocrossing, I have choices of running in stock, prepared, or modified classes, depending on what I've done with the car. It encourages every vette owner to come out and enjoy the autox, and have a reasonably competitive car. When I take my seven, whether it's on street tires, slicks, whatever, I get lumped in with everyone else in either Dmod or Emod. So, unless I'm willing to put alot of $ into the car, and hack it a little, I can't hope to have a competitive ride.

 

 

 

Again, let's focus the discussion on a solution that benefits Seven owners, and encourages more turnout for Sevens, and not the particulars of last years' nationals.

 

 

 

Anything that comes out of this discussion will not prevent anyone from entering their car in DMod or EMod. It just gives people who really don't have "Mod" cars a place to run.

[locostv8]

That was my point. Focus on the problem which is with SEB (solo events board)at SCCA class rules, take the complaint there don't protest a fellow competitors car because you don't like the rules. "THE" Lotus 7 was itself a mod of the English ford sedan to produce a Hill Climb car. I'm not sure how you would come up with specs for the "true" Lotus 7 in that it was a kit car with some number factory produced, possibly Brit 750 rules?

 

 

 

http://wrangler.rutgers.edu/gallery/d/39548-4/1958lotus1.jpg

 

This is a 58 Lotus 7 series 1

 

 

 

http://wrangler.rutgers.edu/gallery/d/39546-4/LfFrQuarter.jpg

 

This is a Lotus 7 series 2

 

 

 

http://wrangler.rutgers.edu/gallery/d/37462-1/DSCF0059.jpg

 

This is a Westfield 7

 

 

 

The "true" 7 is probably the first pic and anything else is a Mod unless something is done to level the playing field. Running a 7 series 1 against a Charterham Superlight R as shipped?

[MichaelD]

I agree the problem is with the SEB and the current rules.

 

 

 

However I disagree with your logic that all sevens ar mods of a Ford.

 

 

 

To follow that logic then all 911s would be mods of the first Porsche. Not distinct modles.

 

 

 

There were four distinct variations of the Seven under Lotus and a few more under Caterham. Each modle could be recognised based on published standards from the manufacturer. That I think can be said of most other Sevensque cars like Birkin, Westfield, Stalker, Ultralite, robinhood, Tiger, etc.

 

 

 

It can not be said of the locost cars because there is no production standard or list of required components.

 

 

 

I think therein lies the problem with the rules.

 

 

 

Michael D.

[slngsht]

Same is true on the vettes.

 

C5 and C6 are superstock

 

C4 is A Stock

 

C2 and C3 are B Stock

 

C1 is F Stock

 

 

 

C6 Z06 and Callaway Corvettes are not eligable for stock categories.

 

 

 

I don't know how this classification system is arrived at. I would think trying to stick a 7 in any existing category will have those people up in arms.

 

It looks like we need a category with some rules to define stock, prep, and mod levels.

[MichaelD]

How about:

 

 

 

Sevens Mod or SMod.

 

We could have a street class - requires proof of registration and insurance; and a Mod class with some basic rules for both groups.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. List of approved manufacturers that are included.

 

This list to include all manufacturers of Seven style cars that are or were eligible for street use and have or had a published list of components, specifications and a dealer network or sales and production site in the US.

 

 

 

2. A sliding scale displacement/weight minimum.

 

 

 

3. Cars to maintain original style fenders offered by their cars manufacturer.

 

 

 

4. No restriction on wheels ans tires, suspension, transmissions, R/L steering ...OTHERS?

 

 

 

5. Engine to remain in front but otherwisw unrestricted as to type or size.

 

 

 

6. Windshiedls are not required.

 

 

 

7. Seats not required beyond Solo safety requirements.

 

 

 

Just a start.

 

 

 

please chime in.

 

 

 

 

 

You know, if enough of us could come up with and agre on a suggested set of rules for a new class for Sevens to run in; maybe it's not that far fetched to present them to the Director of SCCA for consideration.

 

 

 

Along with signatures from the SCCA members on this list.

[slngsht]

Item 3- it's pretty common to switch from clamshell to cycle fenders. How about allowing these 2 styles? Do you see any advantage in autox for cycle style? We'd have to limit it to be basically shaped to hug the tire. don't know the wording. I guess if the manufacturer offered both, it's safe?

 

 

 

Any consideration for bike engined vs. car engined cars? if the scale is displacement / weight, bike engined cars may have an advantage (they typically have a higher output/displacement)? This is probably addressed elsewhere in SCCA - perhaps in CSR / DSR type cars?

[yellowss7]

Don't know if it matters since we're brainstorming here, but Current SCCA rules for DMod exclude motorcycle engined cars.    

[Al N.]

I don't auto-x or race, but this thread has been a good read so far. Can we loop any of the racers from the west coast and texas in if they haven't been contacted already?

[yellowss7]

Come on Al, it's time for you to really start driving that car and stop polishing it. http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif   Tom

[Al N.]

Ouch, that hurts! (But the truth generally does. doesn't it!) http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/wink5.gif

 

 

 

Tom, you must not have read my recent blog post entitled "A mint car vs. a loved car..." Next year I promise to try an auto-x, even if I have to wait until 7-7-7!

 

 

 

http://gardenstatesevens.org/wordpress/?p=66Al Navarro2006-10-30 12:19:17

[slngsht]

Don't know if it matters since we're brainstorming here, but Current SCCA rules for DMod exclude motorcycle engined cars.    

 

 

 

Well, as long as we're brainstorming, we might as well think about this issue. There are a few bike engined cars running around.

[locostv8]

This is the problem. Before we even get into the discussion. What is acceptable for the street is highly debateable and somewhat depends on the state you live in. My first wife wouldn't even sit in my Corvair which was my DD for 2 years, had to do with doing a wheel stand putting it in the garage(mid mounted V8).

 

 

 

The very first item disallows the entire Locost group. I would say that most 7s are kits so even if there is a specified list of components there is a lot of component drift.

 

 

 

Limiting wheels/tires along with displacement/weight is probably the only way to include most Sevenesque cars.

[slngsht]

What is acceptable for the street is highly debateable and somewhat depends on the state you live in.

 

 

 

Yup, that is a problem. In my case, Michael and I live 20 minutes away from each other... in the same county no less. I don't have to meet any requirements at all. No emissions inspections, no safety inspections. None. Not even when I buy or sell it. My car is street legal with historic tags. On the other hand, a newer Caterham has to pass all the safty and emissions requirements.

 

 

 

 

[yellowss7]

 

 

 

Next year I promise to try an auto-x, even if I have to wait until 7-7-7!

 

 

 

http://gardenstatesevens.org/wordpress/?p=66

 

 

 

Al, the Philly SCCA region has an autox scheduled for this Sunday in Warminster Pa, Just off the Pa turnpike at the Willow Grove Exit. The weather forecast is good. You should try to make it. Even if you don't run your car you can ride with me. It's a great venue, an old airfield, that's basically a long slalom up and back. I run in the third heat which should start around 1-1:30. If you want to run your car you need to be there by 11 am to register and tech. Hope to see you there. Tomyellowss72006-10-30 12:51:06

[slngsht]

To take this discussion further, we need to define a Seven (wish us luck...)

 

 

 

I'm going to throw out some basic bullet items... If you guys don't agree, point them out. These would apply to a "stock" class. Mod and prepped classes would be something less.

 

 

 

1- Front-mid engined (engine block has to be 100% in front of the windshield mouting point??

 

2- Rear drive

 

3- 2 Seater

 

4- No rear wing

 

5- Fenders... Rear: must be substantially round (follow contour of the tire. Front: Must be clamshell style, or cycle fender - again, follow contour of the tire only.

 

6- No front wing

 

7- Windshield?? this is an interesting one... there are full, half, or WCM style???

 

8- Flat or open bottom between the front and rear centerlines?? any sevens not meet this?

 

9- Min and Max numbers for track, width, wheelbase, overall length?

 

Please feel free to add and discuss.

[MichaelD]

Branded Sevens are defined by the manufacturer and are therefor included as Sevens. The only Sevens on the road that are not clearly defined are Locosts and other one ofs that people put together.

 

 

 

It would seem to me that a simple spec would be to take the specs from a Lotus & or a Caterham Seven and make them the minimal dimensions. I believe they are the same.

 

 

 

Lrger and heavier would be acceptable.

[Al N.]

Tom-that's too bad, timing wise. Mazda and I are headed down to Tail of the Dragon for a planning/recon trip. We've lined up a bunch of meetings and things, otherwise I'd take you up on the offer!-Al

[locostv8]

The easiest spec for engine setback is that the mounting surface of the block must not be behind the point of 50% of the wheelbase.

 

 

 

The only driven wheels can not be front only. 4x4 (DAX) or RWD with 4x4 having a reasonable weight penalty, 10% above class.

 

 

 

The windshield is optional but if present must be flat DOT approved glass.

 

 

 

Track/wheelbase minimum to be that of the Lotus 7 series 1

 

 

 

The tub must minimally be the same as the Lotus 7 series 1

 

 

 

Competativeness managed by weight/tires. "Street" DOT approved tires with maximun tred width and wear rating.

 

"Prodified" DOT approved tires with maximun tred width and no wear rating. "Mod" tires open.

[locostv8]

Wings, not the Brit deff, should be prohibited in all classes. To me the "Mod" class should be a bit looser on fenders and front spoilers, I think it adds interest. Safety equipment should match SCCA. Fenders even to the extent of the Donk where the shape of the original is a part of the overall shape. I'm still not completly convinced that at autocross speeds that aerodynamics play that much of a decisive advantage.