slngsht Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Let's face it, we had lots of warning 911 was going to happen without having to resort to torture. Those in the White House at the time of 911 chose to ignore the warnings for one reason or another. At least per Richard Clarke's book about the matter, the facts of which were not disputed by the White House when the book was released. And as the country's chief anti-terrorism official at the time of 911, Clarke was in a position to know. So, it was not necessary to torture anyone to get actionable intelligence that 911 was imminent. The problem was getting those in power to take the warning seriously. That, however takes a completely different kind of "intelligence". Then, after it was too late to do anything meaningful, the torture policy was amended courtesy of some very imaginative attorneys, and what was always understood as torture was no longer. Unfortunately, other than making those White House folks feel better for dropping the ball on 911, the new policy doesn't seem to have accomplished much, at least of a positive nature. What I have never really understood is why the Republicans in power have always gotten a free pass on 911. There were there, they had the info it was coming and yet they did nothing. Instead they instituted a torture policy and then took bows for keeping the country safe after 911. Of course, at that point it was too late. Sort of like a pitcher bragging about a shut out after giving up 15 runs in the first inning, if you will. To put it another way, what would my conservative brethern here in the Seven community say if Obama or Clinton had been in power at the time of 911? IMO, 911 (not the torture thing, but the fact that it happened), just like the economic meltdown was not a pub / dem issue. Neither side took the necessary steps in hind sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Ebrahimi Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 (edited) To put it another way, what would my conservative brethern here in the Seven community say if Obama or Clinton had been in power at the time of 911? That they're still just as worthless I'm gonna run away now before Mazda bans me Edited May 26, 2009 by slngsht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athens7 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 8 years of President Clinton ignoring the increasingly aggressive acts by Muslim fundamentalist terrorists; IMHO, the table was well set by the time W got there. Just the feelings of one of the conservative (on some issues) brethren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 (edited) That they're still just as worthless I'm gonna run away now before Mazda bans me where did he go? Edited May 26, 2009 by slngsht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 8 years of President Clinton ignoring the increasingly aggressive acts by Muslim fundamentalist terrorists; IMHO, the table was well set by the time W got there. Just the feelings of one of the conservative (on some issues) brethren. like most of our problems, these things didn't happen overnight. we did alot of arming and training of afghans against USSR. before Saddam was public enemy #1, he was a "friendly". It's a dirty business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderbrake Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Just to stir the pot a bit........... What is Obama going to do about the North Korean a bomb test? Call for a UN resolution that says..... Bad dog, Bad dog, don't do that again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoPho Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Just to stir the pot a bit........... What is Obama going to do about the North Korean a bomb test? Call for a UN resolution that says..... Bad dog, Bad dog, don't do that again? And what do you suggest he do, start (yet another) war with them? And who are we to tell them they can't have nukes when we have more than anyone? Again, it's the do as I say not as I do policy. Perhaps you shouldn't be stirring the pot, it's too small a community here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Just to stir the pot a bit........... What is Obama going to do about the North Korean a bomb test? Call for a UN resolution that says..... Bad dog, Bad dog, don't do that again? There is not much we can do at this point. We are in no position to do much IMO. Empty threats I guess. Cat's out of the bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 And what do you suggest he do, start (yet another) war with them? And who are we to tell them they can't have nukes when we have more than anyone? Again, it's the do as I say not as I do policy. Perhaps you shouldn't be stirring the pot, it's too small a community here It's just a discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoPho Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) It's just a discussion Clearly his intent was to belittle the president rather than have an intelligent discussion Discussing it would have been asking what do you think Obama should do? Edited May 27, 2009 by MoPho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) Let's wait to see what he does then we'll have a basis to decide if it made sense. Clearly, N. Korea stumped the prior 2 administrations so it wouldn't be shocking if he pulled the Bad-Dog approach employed by the Bushies. I don't find the all-out-war alternative too attractive. As far as the faithful Clinton bashers go, see above, I saw recently that a conservative pundit listed Clinton ahead of Bushes I & II as being governed by conservative principles (He abolished welfare, signed NAFTA, actually balanced the budget(!), and reduced the speed of government growth). As we know, the budget, and deficit, went immediately out of whack and the government grew by leaps and bounds in the 8 years after the Republicans took over the White House and Congress. Edited May 27, 2009 by Kitcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 I'm not sure if Democrat/Republican is an indicator of Liberal/Conservative anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderbrake Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) Clearly his intent was to belittle the president rather than have an intelligent discussion Discussing it would have been asking what do you think Obama should do? Mopho, you are correct, I should not have belittled the President. What should he do? I suggest that had we shot down the original missle launch, it would have deterred N Korea, and we would not be in this spot. With the current threats they are making, lets start with a blockade, sieze all current assets in the US, lock up any banking they do, and do everything possible to thwart any actions by N Korea, including shooting down any missile they launch. Also get going on our missle defense system. If we had Star Wars, we could simply say go ahead and launch at us, if you want N Korea to be a smoking cinder. Talk is cheap, it won't work with them. We have been talking for decades. They only respect power that is applied to them. I do however believe that President Obama does not have the will to oppose N Korea, and is basically an appeaser. As Joe Biden said, "he will be tested". And I believe Democrat /Republican is now liberal/liberal lite. Edited May 28, 2009 by powderbrake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHKflyer52 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Well stated Powerbrake and I would have to agree from what I know whichis not much any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Mopho, you are correct, I should not have belittled the President. What should he do? I suggest that had we shot down the original missle launch, it would have deterred N Korea, and we would not be in this spot. With the current threats they are making, lets start with a blockade, sieze all current assets in the US, lock up any banking they do, and do everything possible to thwart any actions by N Korea, including shooting down any missile they launch. Also get going on our missle defense system. If we had Star Wars, we could simply say go ahead and launch at us, if you want N Korea to be a smoking cinder. Talk is cheap, it won't work with them. We have been talking for decades. They only respect power that is applied to them. I do however believe that President Obama does not have the will to oppose N Korea, and is basically an appeaser. As Joe Biden said, "he will be tested". And I believe Democrat /Republican is now liberal/liberal lite. I agree. that's true containment and is the most effective way of dealing with NK, Iran, etc... [opening a can of worms] I still don't understand the logic of actually invading Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoPho Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Mopho, you are correct, I should not have belittled the President. What should he do? I suggest that had we shot down the original missle launch, it would have deterred N Korea, and we would not be in this spot. With the current threats they are making, lets start with a blockade, sieze all current assets in the US, lock up any banking they do, and do everything possible to thwart any actions by N Korea, including shooting down any missile they launch. Also get going on our missle defense system. If we had Star Wars, we could simply say go ahead and launch at us, if you want N Korea to be a smoking cinder. Talk is cheap, it won't work with them. We have been talking for decades. They only respect power that is applied to them. I do however believe that President Obama does not have the will to oppose N Korea, and is basically an appeaser. As Joe Biden said, "he will be tested". And I believe Democrat /Republican is now liberal/liberal lite. Right, so we shoot down their missile, it feeds into Kim Jong-il's paranoia that we're out to get them, and in turn, NK attacks S Korea and/or Japan (or us) and then what should we do? I do however believe that President Obama does not have the will to oppose N Korea Maybe Obama should insult Kim Jong-il like your man Bush did, that sure improved the situation. It's real easy to be critical from your armchair, but you don't have all the facts. You seem to want to jump all over Obama about this (blind hatred?), but remember this has been going on for a while and all anyone else before him did is "talk", perhaps there is a reason for this.... And again, who are we to even tell them they can't have these weapons when [from what I understand] under Bush we had been building new ones ourselves? You have to look at it from the other perspective, a bit hypocritical no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderbrake Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Right, so we shoot down their missile, it feeds into Kim Jong-il's paranoia that we're out to get them, and in turn, NK attacks S Korea and/or Japan (or us) and then what should we do? They threaten us and our allies, and we are worried about getting them angry? We should hammer them. It's real easy to be critical from your armchair, but you don't have all the facts. You seem to want to jump all over Obama about this (blind hatred?) Blind hatred seems to be the province of the libs. They have clearly demonstrated that over the entire Bush presidency. I don't hate the President, I simply have absolutely no confidence in President Obama, and I believe his actions and stimulus plan is, and will be for some time, the most damaging thing that has been done to the USA by any President to date. I fear for the safety of our country and for my childrens and grandchildrens welfare. The stimulus plan debt is crushing, and we and our kids will suffer from it for a long time. And again, who are we to even tell them they can't have these weapons when [from what I understand] under Bush we had been building new ones ourselves? You have to look at it from the other perspective, a bit hypocritical no? I don't care about Kim Jon-Ils perspective, and I don't care about hypocrisy, I care about an insane dictator having an atomic bomb and missles that can reach us or our allies. Keeping bad guys from having weapons is in our countries best interest, and is logical, as Spock might say. As I was typing this, I came to the conclusion there is no question that you and I are on the opposite sides of the political spectrum, and will likely never agree or aquiesce to each other's viewpoint, so I am dropping the whole matter, before it gets real personal. I have friends (and children)who are exceedingly liberal, so we just don't discuss politics very much. Lets stay friends as members of the Se7ens community, and if we get a chance to meet some time, the first beer is on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHKflyer52 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) As I was typing this, I came to the conclusion there is no question that you and I are on the opposite sides of the political spectrum, and will likely never agree or aquiesce to each other's viewpoint, so I am dropping the whole matter, before it gets real personal. I have friends (and children)who are exceedingly liberal, so we just don't discuss politics very much. Lets stay friends as members of the Se7ens community, and if we get a chance to meet some time, the first beer is on me. Well said and spoken like the gentlemen you are. Edited May 28, 2009 by MHKflyer52 Corrected spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 locking up at the request of OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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