how 'bout this donor

[kennyrayandersen]

I was doing a little research to see if Lexus made any 4-cylinder engines that might be a good choice, and though not imported directly into the States, I ran across this one and thought it would make a nice donor. Engine and tranny would be a sweet combo, but I’m not sure how you would integrate the rear into a kit version. Anybody know whether there are any kit versions that would readily accept the rear as well? Seems like the Australian Birkens are Toyota powered…

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-3SGE-Beams-DUAL-VVTi-6-Speed-RWD-Engine-Swap-3S-GE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem5883545689QQitemZ380160464521QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[Mondo]

Well you likely wouldn't use the suspension bits... though Toyota, might be a bit of a hassle partswise and troubleshooting any ECU issues etc.. considering it's a Japanese spec

[kennyrayandersen]

Well you likely wouldn't use the suspension bits... though Toyota, might be a bit of a hassle partswise and troubleshooting any ECU issues etc.. considering it's a Japanese spec

 

I was afraid that it might be hard to integrate the IRS into the chassis, I guess I wasn’t thinking too much about the rest of the suspension, but rather, I wonder if it is close enough that you could install the IRS, driveline and engine. I’m not sure how much of a concern the JDM ECU would be since 1) all kinds of JDM engines are imported already (this has got to be about the best and easiest way to find a high performance 4-cylinder), 2) somebody is either using an aftermarket ECU, adapting the JDM unit, or integrating and likely re-chipping an American ECU. I know on the Honda Hybrid site, they play pretty fast and loose with all the electronics, but My guess is you might have to get some help (I’m no electrical wiz, though I have built my own amp, pre-amp, and electronic X-over, and dozens of loudspeakers with passive x-overs) – car electronics is kind of specialized, so I’d probably go somewhere and get that done. The Birkin Australia site seems to be pushing the Toyota lumps – maybe I’ll poke around a bit more and see what they are doing for their IRS setup. Come to think about it the Raw engineering Striker is also pushing a lot of Toyota stuff – I’ll check over there as well.

 

It might be nice to be sitting on a few hundred ponies, without having to force feed it air, if you know what I mean…

[Birkin42]

For the IRS, you need to consider if the track is correct, do the wheel bolt patterns match (not a problem if you can live with mis-matched wheels), suspension pickup points, and diff mounts. I am pretty sure you will never find a plug and play kit that will except the entire rear subframe. My guess is that you will need to narrow the track and do significant frame modifications to accommodate it in any kit that isn't designed around this as a doner.

[scannon]

One thing to consider is that you may be able to sell the front and rear suspensions and recover a significant portion of the price of the package.

[kennyrayandersen]

good points. Well at least, since it is already set up for RWD, and the 3S-GE is a pretty popular motor, it might be good for at least the engine and tranny. I don't thing there would be too much trouble to get a drive shaft made that would adapt the JDM tranny to whatever rear end was 'normally' used in the kit. i've just been reading a lot about the Ford trannies leaking, which thing I would prefer to avoid. Also, I'm starting to lean toward a more traditional build, which does limit the engine choices a bit. I think this one is pretty compact, if what I've been reading is correct.

[Mondo]

the S2Ks use Suburu independant rear ends... plenty around

[TheDingo8MyBaby]

The 3sge is a decent engine, but it is relatively cumbersome and heavy which are two major disadvantages for a 7 application.

 

210 HP isn't a ton for it's size and while you can easily get a lot more, there's only so much power that is useable in a 7. It isn't a screamer but has decent torque. Personally I would choose something higher strung, smaller and lighter for a 7, but that's just me.

 

I also wouldn't count on getting much for the suspension bits. Even though it's lexus, there's just not a huge market for old, used OEM suspension parts.

 

Wiring is not bad and there are wiring diagrams available for free on the internet. It's just time consuming - especially to do it right. You shouldn't have to trouble shoot the ECU should you decide to use it, but going standalone outright will save you some time if you realize you want more power down the road.

 

If I were to chose a toyota power plant, I'd look into the 4age. It's small, light and high strung. The 20 valve versions have individual throttle bodies standard which sound very nice. You will only be able to get 180 hp out of it reliably without spending a lot of money. You can use the t50 or a better option would be to use the miata transmission.

 

Overall, I feel the miata is a great choice for a 7 donor. The transmission is wonderful and the motor is bullet proof. The only downside is the exhaust note. Another noteable alternative would be the s2000 motor.

Edited September 26, 2009 by TheDingo8MyBaby

[kennyrayandersen]

Thanks again,

Yeah, I'm starting to hear that the 3S-GE is a fair amount bigger (heavier) than the 4AGE. The problem is that there just aren't that many 4AGE donors around, though I'm sure you can get plenty of the engines as they came in MR2s, if I'm not mistaken. The other 'disadvantage' is that most of them are around 160 HP, though they are pretty cheap. I didn't think they would bolt right up to a Miata tranny -- I had heard the T-50 will bolt up (but that's not the one in the Miata, is it?).

 

I was hoping to hit around 200 HP, which I guess sounds like a Duratec with intake, exhaust and cams...

 

Yeah, You could go Miata turbo, but I was trying to keep it simple and I didn't want the HP to be too peaky (am I asking for too much?).

[BusaNostra]

First -- what chassis would you like to buy?

Why mess around with JDM engine? There are so many things involve then find out later the engine too wide too tall and will not fit to the bay.

 

I've done Cosworth conversion, 4AGE conversion, hayabusa turbo conversion and now

Honda s2000. I sincerely believed, Honda s2000 is the ultimate conversion for me.

Ultralight, Westfield, Dax can accomodate Honda engine. I met the first guy who imported Birkins using Honda s2000 engine. He lives in Springfield Massachusetts racing Fiat & Corvette. Give me time to think the guy's name. I know you are leaning toward Birkins. Honda S2000 engine is class by itself, people were facinated looking at the lump.

 

4Age is awesome too but if I will do it over again, I will use the short block of 4Agze (supercharged version-same block used in atlantic engine) and go for turbo (toyota supercharger will not fit). 4age is 116 hp and the supercharged version 145.

In the turbo trim, you can harness power close to 200hp. No need to replace the 4Agze pistons & rods. It's already forged. I have one if you are interested.

 

When everything said and done, you will spend gazillion... find out Honda's reliability & 240 hp is hard to beat.

Edited September 27, 2009 by BusaNostra

[gjslutz]

I like the idea of the S2000. Can you get the S2000 in where it isn't poking out the top side or dragging on the road? Will the 6 speed honda box fit as well? Do you need to tilt it like the XR7, if so is a dry sump needed?

 

I like the Little Zetec, but not L.exhaust. The T-9 is not good for hard up shifts, but is a smooth shifting box if not pushed hard. @185 RWHP on pump gas and 1220 LBS it is a fun package though.

[BusaNostra]

I like the idea of the S2000. Can you get the S2000 in where it isn't poking out the top side or dragging on the road? Will the 6 speed honda box fit as well? Do you need to tilt it like the XR7, if so is a dry sump needed?

 

 

It all depends what type of seven the poster will be buying. Fabrication has no rules, anything is possible.

Yes I used the Honda 6 speed. Nope, I avoid dry sump, my purpose is to get as much reliability from Honda install.

[Alaskossie]

Busanostra,

 

Is Dax available in the US of A? Do you know of any Dax Sevens over here?

 

Seems that I recall concluding that Dax was not interested in selling to US customers, or seeing any of their kits end up over here.

 

I do know that it is not possible to have a requested Dax factory brochure delivered by mail to a US address......

[gjslutz]

BusaNostra,

 

"I met the first guy who imported Birkins using Honda s2000 engine. He lives in Springfield Massachusetts racing Fiat & Corvette. Give me time to think the guy's name. I know you are leaning toward Birkins. Honda S2000 engine is class by itself, people were facinated looking at the lump".

 

I'm sorry I thought you were speeking of the Birkin with "your" install of the Honda S2000 into the Birkin.

[BusaNostra]

Yeah, the guy has Birkin with Honda s2000 engine. I met him but I can't remember his name. A while back I used to see him raced Fiat X19 and later Corvettes in Lime Rock. I don't remember if his last name is "Baker".

 

Update: I found Kim Baker

 

Dax is not possible in the USA unless what the guy (from Toronto) did. He went to Europe and bought a Dax Rush. His first choice is the Dokervoort but beyond his budget. He also has S2000 engine. I met him in Scarborough Ontario (at the car show).

 

My car is a Westfield. If you know around it, definitely will fit.

Edited September 27, 2009 by BusaNostra

[kennyrayandersen]

First -- what chassis would you like to buy?

Why mess around with JDM engine? There are so many things involve then find out later the engine too wide too tall and will not fit to the bay.

 

I've done Cosworth conversion, 4AGE conversion, hayabusa turbo conversion and now

Honda s2000. I sincerely believed, Honda s2000 is the ultimate conversion for me.

Ultralight, Westfield, Dax can accomodate Honda engine. I met the first guy who imported Birkins using Honda s2000 engine. He lives in Springfield Massachusetts racing Fiat & Corvette. Give me time to think the guy's name. I know you are leaning toward Birkins. Honda S2000 engine is class by itself, people were facinated looking at the lump.

 

4Age is awesome too but if I will do it over again, I will use the short block of 4Agze (supercharged version-same block used in atlantic engine) and go for turbo (toyota supercharger will not fit). 4age is 116 hp and the supercharged version 145.

In the turbo trim, you can harness power close to 200hp. No need to replace the 4Agze pistons & rods. It's already forged. I have one if you are interested.

 

When everything said and done, you will spend gazillion... find out Honda's reliability & 240 hp is hard to beat.

The JDM engine thing is that they are easy to get, and even get in RWD versions that often weren’t available stateside (and thus the total lack of RWD donors). Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE the Honda lump and am a really big Honda fan (one of the reasons I’m actually considering a Spectre (http://www.spectresportscars.co.uk/index.html). I don’t even mind spending the money for the S2000 engine and transmission; however, all of the guys on the Birkin user group are claiming that the tunnel is really small leaving few options, and from what I’ve read and heard the Honda would be very tall in most sevens that are close to the original size 7 (Birkin is an S-3 clone, if I’m not mistaken). I’d like to see the S2000 install into a Birkin and what was/would be required to pull it off. I really didn’t want to get into the whole dry sump shenanigans because I think the closer you keep it to the ‘book’ build, whichever book that might be, then the smoother, faster, and more rea$onable the build will be. I was really leaning toward the S2K in fact just because of the Honda engine, though I’m not so hot on the style (I’m going to go by Brian's and look at the car in person to see whether I like it better in person than in the pictures).

 

The Duratec, which is supposed to be the current ‘hot’ setup in the Birkin, is supposed to provide just north of 200 HP. I think I could live with that, and from what everybody is saying too much more than that is a waste in the hands of 90% of those driving them and I’m probably one of those! lol.

 

I got to say the Cosworth installs look unbelievable, but I’m sure the price of the engine is as well, and they don’t seem to be that easy to find, so I wasn’t really considering that one. I like the 4AGEs as well, but they just looked like they were down a bit on power unless you were willing to spend a fair amount extra (could just be my perception). And isn’t there an issue with the tilt on the later models when mating to a RWD transmission? I wanted to keep away from the turbos as well to keep it all simpler. The turbos can be a bit peaky as well (though I don’t think that in itself is a significant issue) and I’ve read that comment about the S2000 engine more than a few times, though I don’t know how that would compare to a Duratec, for instance – I haven’t seen a side-by-side torque curve (torque moves the car), which would be interesting.

 

Yeah, the guy has Birkin with Honda s2000 engine. I met him but I can't remember his name. A while back I used to see him raced Fiat X19 and later Corvettes in Lime Rock. I don't remember if his last name is "Baker".

 

Dax is not possible in the USA unless what the guy (from Toronto) did. He went to Europe and bought a Dax Rush. His first choice is the Dokervoort but beyond his budget. He also has S2000 engine. I met him in Scarborough Ontario (at the car show).

 

My car is a Westfield. If you know around it, definitely will fit.

 

Yeah, those Dokervoorts are pretty cool looking, but ouch, one will take a reaming to get one into the garage lol. I think with the bigger sevens (Westfield, MNR, WCM, Dax, etc) that the S2000 engine will fit, but from what guys are saying, it’s pretty tough (read seemingly not worth it) to shoehorn one into the smaller rigs. Again, if you can find the guy, or pics of the install, that would be extraordinarily useful.

Edited September 27, 2009 by kennyrayandersen