Ethanol in fuel

[WestTexasS2K]

I attended a class a few weeks ago about the damage ethanol causes in small engine and how to avoid it. It had been easier in years past to just buy the 91 or 93 octane and avoid the 87 which usually had ethanol mixed with it. With the new fuel incentives that push the mixing of Ethanol in the fuel it is now showing up in the super unleaded tanks as well.

I had always assumed that the fuels that say they are 10% ethanol were a calculated mixture. I started doing some testing in the last few weeks and have found as much as 50% ethanol in the 10% marked pumps. Super Unleaded have had from non to up to 15% ethanol. The state weights and measures dept that monitors pumps at stations says that they do no fuel quality testing. They make sure you get a gallon when you buy a gallon and that is it. There is no stae or federal agency monitoring the actual percentage of the mixtures being dumped into you local gas station. You can buy a tester for under 10 dollars check your favorite fuel spot and see how it stands up.

 

So what does this mean for our favorite fun transport. To start off it is recommended that you run a tank of fuel at least every two weeks. Current gas shelf life is 90 days. After 90 days you will begin to have phase seperation the ethanol seperates from the gas and doesnt just remix with a shake. Ethanol is very hydroscopic so will pull moisture from the air thru the fuel vent and put water in the fuel. When they water sits in the fuel tank, fuel lines, side drafts carbs corrosion sets in at an aggressive rate. The Ethanol is also corrosive to aluminum and other metals. Fuel systems that have ethanol must be hard anodized or plastic to keep the corrosion at bay. If you have side draft carbs and your car sits for a few months over the winter you are very likely to have a poorly running car when you start it in the spring if it starts at all. The fuel will corrode the bowl and eats the brass jets in the carb clogging it or changing the orfice sizes for incorrect fuel ratio when you finally get it cleaned out.

 

I have a friend that is the local professional lawn retailer for west Texas and is one of the top Echo dealers in the state. He has seen string trimmers and blowers that have blown the engine in 1 or two weeks because the home owner did not read the manual and put E10 fuel in and scored the piston and cylinder from the ethanol washing the oil of the cylinder. Most new equipment has a ethanol sensor in the tank. If the sensor changes color your warranty will be voided.

 

What are your options? for all your small engines you can buy a fuel made by VP racing fuel that is call SEF (small engine fuel). It is available in quarts and 5 gallon it is available as a 4 cyc or 2cyc with the oil already mixed in 40:1 and 50:1 ratios.

 

Your cars need to be filled with fresh high octane fuel with Seafoam additive in it. I would recommend testing the fuel before putting in the car before storage to make sure it is ethanol free. you have access to aviation fuel 100LL can be used. I wouldnt recommend it if you have fuel injection with O2 sensors the lead can ruin the sensor. The VP fuel is a pure 94 octane gas with a long shelf life up to 2 years. The bad thing is the cost. Here a 5 gal bucket is 47.00 for the four stroke fuel. 57.00 for the 2 cycle. A 54 gallon drum here is 405.00 so you are looking at 9.20- 9.40 per gallon for real fuel. Not a cheap option but it is better than ruining your carbs and dealing with poor running conditions.

 

 

There is several days of reading on the net if you want to research it on your own.

[Kitcat]

50% ethanol? That cant be good! What does adding "Stabil" do for longevity/stability of the mix?

[WestTexasS2K]

Kitcat from what I understand is that Stabil does nothing for ethanol fuels. Stabil forms a barrier that floats on top of the fuel that helps reduce the the octane vaporization of the fuel. It helps keep it from going bad by providing a layer between it and air. The engineer doing the seminar stated Stabil was becoming in effective with new fuels.

[MisterMike]

In our part of the world it's impossible to buy gasoline that's ethanol-free. Impossible.

[WestTexasS2K]

MisterMike what do you do when you store your car for short periods?

[pi7ot]

In the midwest, Ethanol is subsidized and heavily pushed by the state Govts. You simply have no choice, as you cannot trust the franchises not to dope the fuel anyway. E15 89 octane mixed in with so called Non E 91 octane at 91 octane prices equals more profits.

I let my M3(metal tank) sit for a couple of years while rebuilding the engine. The ethanol (which I avoid) stripped the tank walls, killed the pumps and killed the replacements ($1000).

The Birkin(Zetec) has been OK.

 

 

m

[gjslutz]

When I store my mower I run 100LL AVGAS in it for the last fill up. In all of my weed earers I mix the 2cycle with avgas as well. I do the same with my 7. No problems to date

[WestTexasS2K]

Looks like EPA is trying to ban 100LL by the end of 2011.

[MisterMike]

WestTexas--I'm still a spectator here, and don't own a 7. However I do ride a BMW and travel frequently, leaving my admittedly modern cars sitting for extended periods (on occasion). The only real precaution I take is keeping my tanks full and using Sta-Bil during extended periods of storage. However, I'm not claiming this would work in a more rudimentary machine.

[Croc]

Your cars need to be filled with fresh high octane fuel with Seafoam additive in it.

 

Thank you - This is a very timely and useful post. I had heard ethanol was bad for engines and had always used the premium gas option to try an minimize the ethanol in the gas I was purchasing. Like MisterMike, I travel frequently and for extended periods and I had always figured adding Stabil was the solution for this and the winter lay up. While it is annoying to find out I am likely being ripped off for paying for premium gas I would rather know so I can find a new way to protect the car.

 

My question goes back to your original post - what is Seafoam additive? I have never heard of it.

[Racergt]

I'm not sure how a product that is still made with the same formula for the 1930's is going to be perfect for protecting your car and stabilizing your 2010 fuel...

[RossD]

Well, from what I've heard/read most new engines (at least automotive) are designed to take E10 fuels and that E10 would be the maximum over the year as the blend will change during the seasons. Ethanol is not "bad" for engines but rather can damage certain types of materials which were previously often used in engines/fuel systems. Personally, I think ethanol is getting an unfair bad rep, and flex fuel engines that are naturally aspirated are just hurting it even more. A N/A engine that can run from E0 to E85 cannot run very efficiently on either E85 or straight gasoline. But a turbo engine with a well groomed ECU would be quite efficient at both and would, I think, turn peoples E85 thoughts from hurting engines to being a high performance fuel. (High performance either in mileage or power). Your Mileage May Vary. (I havent looked into small engine but I do admit to buying 91 octane without ethanol just to be safe. Kwik Trip even advertises it as no ethanol and being for small engines)

 

-Ross

[WestTexasS2K]

RossD I am very familiar with the performance benifits of ethanol. 7evin and I built his car specifically to run on E85. We researched it for over a year and have been running it for 3 years. You will never get the same mileage running ethanol as you do gasoline I dont car how well you groom the ECU. It takes 40-50% more fuel running on E85. It has performance benifits because it has a very high octane (113) and that is why we can run 15lbs of boost with 11:1 CR on E85 and it makes great power. It does have a induction cooling effect which helps on forced inductin engines.

 

It does come at a cost. We had hard anodize all the aluminum components in the fuel system. The fuel cell in normally aluminum. E85 corrodes the aluminum. We had to find a crosslink polyethaline tank to use for a fuel cell. The fuel pump is double the size needed compared to when you run on gasoline. It also has to be hard anodized. Fuel injectors need to increased to supply the fuel required. We are running 4x1000cc injectors on a 2.2 l motor and we are close to running out of duty cycle on those.

 

The modern flex fuel cars have the provisions to deal with the alcohol. They have plastic fuel cells, plastic fuel lines and sensors that detect the alcohol content to adjust the ecu. Those that buy e85 for the modern vehicle have no concerns with flex fuel vehicle unless it sits for over 90days. The fuel will start phase seperation after 90 days assuming you put in you vehicle when it was fresh. If you bought your fuel from a station that doesnt move alot of fuel the gas can be bad when you put it in the tank. This doesnt even bring up the problem fuel stations are having with the ethanol eating the varnish off the walls of old tanks and pumping into your car. This will get better as time goes on and the tanks eventually get cleaned. There is a big concern that the underground fiberglass tanks will start to leak because the alcohol can disolve fiberglass tanks. You can see this in the boating industry where there has been a massive problem with the fiberglass tanks built into the bottom of the boats are leaking due to ethanol in fuel.

 

My intent on bringing this up is there are a number of guys here that run aluminum side draft carbs and aluminum fuel cells with aluminum fuel lines. They have mechanical fuel pumps with a rubber diaphram or electrical with rubber parts that will eventually fail when exposed to ethanol for extended periods. I assume a large majority of the members here also have string trimmers, leaf blower, lawn mowers and snow blowers, generators, atv's and motorcycles that can impact. Talk to any of the mechanics that work on any of the above items and they will tell you the devestating effects of E10 gasoline. That is assuming you are getting E10. I stated in the first post we have found E50 in tanks that were labeled E10. Matter of fact a mojority of the spots we tested ranged between E10 and E15.

 

Seafoam is a product orignally developed for the boating industry. The engineer that gave our class has been working with ECHO for 30 years. He stated that the Seafoam has showed the best results in all their testing. Echo spent millions of dollars working on the problem over the last few years.

Edited December 7, 2010 by WestTexasS2K

[Croc]

For those like me that thought Sea Foam was a decorating term in house paint, here is a link to their website and where you can buy their products from:

 

http://www.seafoamsales.com/where-can-i-buy-sea-foam-products.html

[JohnK]

And, for us technical wanta-knows, an explanation.

http://www.seafoamsales.com/tech-info-gas-engines/

[MisterMike]

If anyone's considering Sea Foam, you might want to also check into Lucas Fuel Treatment. My mechanical knowledge is scant indeed, but the advertised descriptions and attributes are similar: it provides internal cleaning and lubrication of your engine's top end, as well as the fuel pump, injectors, etc., and increases fuel octane.

 

It's also possible to buy it by the gallon (in fact, by the drum if you're so inclined), so it's very economical and seems to work well. I buy the gallon size and use it in all my vehicles.

[nicholastanguma]

Seafoam is terrible for "fixing" ethanol gasoline; it's a cleaner, just like ethanol. Adding two cleaning agents together to "stablize phase separation" in ethanol petrol actually makes your fuel more detergent. Use Seafoam to clean your carbs and fuel lines, not keep your gasoline over the winter.

 

Guys, here's the best website info I've ever found regarding the scientific process of ethanol's phase separation and actual empirical testing of all sorts of commercially available "ethanol gasoline fixes." These guys aren't selling any fuel stabilizing product, in case that helps you feel better about their motives. Unfortunately, they found there is (as of yet) no genuinely effective fuel stabilizer for preventing separation in ethanol petrol (gasoline stabilizer only works for non-eth mixtures). Just the nature of the beast. Thanks a lot, you politically overblown EPA.

 

[/url]http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_additive_safe_with_e10_list.html

http://www.fueltestkit.com/remove_water_gas.html

 

Your best bet is to find, if possible, a petrol station that sells non-ethanol fuel. These days that's a mighty difficult find, but here's a couple of resources that I've found tremendously useful.

 

http://www.buyrealgas.com/

http://pure-gas.org/

 

Unfortunately, VP Fuels Street Legal 100 octane gasoline has plenty of ethanol added to it, so if you were thinking about finding refuge in street legal racing fuel, think again. Personally, I find if I cannot get my hands on "pure clear" gasoline, then cycling the ethanol every two weeks is the safest thing to do. Otherwise, drain your fuel tank and your carbs and your fuel lines.

 

Hope this info helps everyone.

Edited December 9, 2010 by nicholastanguma

[Kitcat]

FWIW-all theory aside, I have had zero problems with storing my Seven for 4 months a year or my snow blower 8-9 months a year with pump gas containing the usual amounts of ethanol. Maybe the problem isn't as big as advertised? I always add Sta-bil tho don't know if it helps or if there really is no problem.

 

Mike M.

[JohnK]

I agree with Kitcat re personal experience. My Honda 2000 engine fired up instantly after not having been run for well over a year, and ran through its warm up control sequence with no complaints.

I'll bet that there really are some issues, primarily because using Ethanol as a gasoline additive doesn't have a lot of history behind it yet, but getting all of the ducks lined up (and a clear picture of what the problems are) will probably take as long as it takes people to realize that Ethanol is a really lousy solution and things move on to something else.

[Kitcat]

Note, Congress is currently debating whether to renew the massive federal subsidy for putting ethanol in gas, as well as the subsidy for renewable energy sources. Early betting says ethanol in gas subsidy gets renewed, renewable energy sources subsidy goes down. Which makes sense in that it doesn't make sense:).