Ethanol in fuel

[WestTexasS2K]

If you have an older car with rubber fuel lines carbs with rubber seals and mechanical fuel pump with a rubber diaghram you will have issus. Another point was if you have a car sit for periods of a few months say winter storage. Phase separation will occur and your car will run badly. More modern cars with fuel Injection deal with it much better.

 

When we first built Kevin's car E 85 was fairly new not a lot of data available so employed all the pure alcohol systems.

[oilteq]

A potential risk of ethanol fuel blends not mentioned thus far is knock or detonation. One of the reasons E10 has been mandated in non-attainment areas is that O2 is attached to the molecules, so engines produce less CO emissions, but more CO2 emissions. In other words it enleans the mixture if your ECU is not compensating.

 

The biggest risk is high performance engines that are set on kill, and do not have compensating electronics. Many high-end chain saws have suffered an early death when state legislatures mandated E10.

 

My advice is to tune your engine to whatever fuel you intend to run, and then stay with it. The chain saw guys that had their carburetors adjusted when E10 came out are still running them.

 

Phase separation is caused by water contamination, not age, and I do not think there is much risk in a typical vehicle. The biggest risk here is a tank or container vented to atmosphere, and then when there is a temperature drop.

 

As mentioned in earlier posts, ethanol will suspend a lot of water. Warm ethanol suspends a lot more water than cold ethanol. So, if your fuel is near its saturation point when it is warm, and then the temperature drops 50 degrees, phase separation can occur.

 

Although many fuel additives claim to stop phase separation, they do not make a significant difference. Think about it—E10 is 10% water suspending additive; like 10 bottles of Heet in a 10-gallon tank. If you have so much water that 10% ethanol will not suspend it, 1% more water-suspending additive (ethanol, methanol, or some type of glycol ether) is unlikely to fix your problem. Gasoline additives can be beneficial in cleaning, inhibiting oxidation during storage, and preventing corrosive wear, but claims about stopping phase separation should be questioned.

 

Speaking of cleaning, ethanol is high in solvency and can clean deposits off the bottom of you tank, or the gas station’s tank. However, that does not mean it will clean injector deposits or intake valve deposits. In fact, E10 will form more injector deposits and intake valve deposits than the base gasoline by itself or E100. Detergent additives are needed to control these deposits.

 

Ecarte56, I enjoyed your post. I think your fuel guru’s last name is spelled Ruhland. I met him over 20 years ago when he worked for Lubrizol, and I hold him in high regard.

 

Blaine

[danilo]

In MY part of the world Ethanol content decreases with Octane rating.

Chevron 94 is 100% Ethanol Free.. as assured by Chevron itself.

I use it in my Lawn equipment as well as my ancient TZ350 Yamaha racers

Problems 100% avoided :-)

[WestTexasS2K]

We had a few ethanol free pumps here but they have all now changed to blends. I've been buying VP racings SEF fuel for my equipment for winter storage, but at 70.00 dollars for 5 gal I don't use more than I have to.

[ecarte56]

Blaine: I am in between guru's right now. Fred is not with Valvtect anymore; I think he retired. Hard to find good engineers that will let guys like me pester them with endless questions. How come all reps aren't as good?

 

WestTexas2K: last year you reported good results with your Jegs foam. Still holding up OK? The Stalker guys have had trouble with the foam in Jaz tanks. I just got a Fuel Safe cell: their foam looks and feels like the same stuff as in the Jaz tank. Actually, it feels like polyethylene.

[WestTexasS2K]

Yes it is still looking good. Last time we talked to fuel safe they said their liners wouldn't work with E85. That's been a few years ago hopefully they developed something by now with the increase in use of Ethanol in the performance industry.

[WestTexasS2K]

Blaine what's the best oil to use now with good ZDDP levels. I'm still using diesel engine oil input of my stuff.

[JohnK]

Looks like the Ethanol issue may be left behind, for better or worse.

 

" After a series of bitter political fights, the US Congress allowed a subsidy for ethanol fuel to expire at the end of 2011, ending a program harshly criticized by environmentalists and others."

http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-ethanol-subsidy-expires.html

 

Part of my knowledge of it is that the plan was to save energy and that it turned out to have an even higher cost and other negative side effects - beyond the possibility that it's bad for engines and needs more research in that area.

[oilteq]

WestTexasS2K

 

The best motor oil? Cen-Pe-Co Racing Oil, but I may be a bit biased since I formulated it. There are other adequate motor oils for mild to extreme racing engines, and new products are being added all the time. I read two press releases about new engine oils for racing or flat-tappet engines within the past month (one from Shell’s Quaker State). They seem a little late to the party considering I started warning about reduced ZDDP in March 2005.

 

Anyway, the engines at risk of premature wear have a sliding interface between the cam and lifter. High RPM, aggressive grinds, and higher valve spring pressures all increase load, and therefore the risk. Break-in, until the parts wear in, is the most critical.

 

I like diesel engine oils for most engines. API CJ-4 specifications include an engine test in the Cummins ISX, which has a sliding cam. They have higher ZDDP levels than passenger car oils (typically 1200 ppm zinc), plus the detergents also act as rust inhibitors.

 

For hard core racing engines, I like to see dedicated racing oils with higher levels of ZDDP—1600 ppm zinc (.016%) or more.

 

Blaine

[WestTexasS2K]

I've purchased several orders of the Cenpeco diesel oil but shipping gets pretty high. I need smaller amounts for the Ultralite. I will give it a try. Thanks.

[oilteq]

It is really hard to justify E10 on an economic basis (it does not save energy), it can cause damage to elastomers in older (pre-1990) engines, and it can damage high performance engines without sophisticated electronics. However, E10 is benign in modern passenger cars. We have had it in Iowa for more than 30 years, and I use it every day in my daily driver—not because it is better, but because it is cheaper at the pump with the tax games played here.

 

I do not think the lack of a federal subsidy will have much impact on the use of ethanol for fuel. Several states have mandated the use of E10, regardless of its cost, and others have proposed legislation. It is required in “non attainment areas” where CO levels are too high. The EPA issued a partial waiver for E15 last year, although most car warranties did not.

 

Even if it is not subsidized, the Renewable Fuels Standard passed during the previous administration means the growth of etahnol in gasoline will continue to be an issue.

 

Blaine

[jimrankin]

Alcohol is a viable alternative energy source except that the USA has gone about it all wrong. We should not be using food sources (corn) to make alcohol and paying out huge subsidies for it to boot. Brazil has used alcohol as a main source of gasolone replacememt for years (you can convert to 100% alcohol or stay with gas with no alcohol) but did not subsidize food source marerial to be used. We have priced corn out of the export market (which helped with the trade deficit related to oil more than ethanol has) and raised the cost of staples (priced a box of corn flakes lately)used by our poorest population segment.

The corn lobby is powerful so it's what we got stuck with. I can't complain too much about the corn lobby in the midwest when we pay big farmers here in California to grow cotton and rice (both require massive watering) in what is in reality, a desert state. Big farmers and big water districts equal a big time lobby to control the government.

Want alcohol as a fuel source, utilize the thousands of square miles of swamps in the poor south to grow non-food source plants like brazil does. That would provide low/mid skilled jobs where they are needed and not disrupt food crop cost/exportability. Unfortunately, those states don't swing a lot of power in the government. Since "reason" and "government" do not seem to be synonymous we are not going to see much change.

[WestTexasS2K]

Since the corn subsidies started we have lost all of the hog farms in our area because feed prices have made it impossible to make a profit. A majority of our farmers have quit growing cotton and switched to corn because of subsidies. Now there is less cotton on the market and less for use to export. Just like most government programs that have good intentions but they never seem to consider the consequences. Don't get me started on the veggie oil fiasco the gov created.

[jimrankin]

Even though brazil is the "leader" in alcohol blend fuels they are still making changes for the better. They use sugar cane as the main source since the sugar converts easily to alcohol but they are also working on using other, more environmentally friendly sources. (Note that they burn the waste from the cane as a source for electrical power genertaion which also helps them decrease imported oil).

In their "backwoods" there is a cottage industry in 100% alcohol fuel production that the government doesn't even count, probably kind of like ours doesn't count "white lightning" in how much booze we consume in the USA in a year.

There are several rapidly growing "swamp weeds" that also convert into alcohol and that is where we should be looking for future energy. Loren is really on the nail head with the issue of hogs and cotton. Everything from a pork chop to a T-bone has skyrocketed from the price of corn escalating. I was told that we are not competative with CHINA in exporting corn to Mexico because our corn is no longer affordable.

If were going to blow my tax money on something lets subsidize converting swamps into agricultural production land instead of making the rich richer.

[oilteq]

There is a plan to get us away from crop based alcohol, and by coincidence, it came up in one of my weekly newsletters today. See if this instills you with confidence that a solution is on the way.

 

http://oilspot2.dtnenergy.com/e_article002323500.cfm?x=bkwwT2M,b1lpRrlw,w

[MHKflyer52]

There is a plan to get us away from crop based alcohol, and by coincidence, it came up in one of my weekly newsletters today. See if this instills you with confidence that a solution is on the way.

 

http://oilspot2.dtnenergy.com/e_article002323500.cfm?x=bkwwT2M,b1lpRrlw,w

 

Sounds like the EPA has found a way to support its self by charging the oil / gas producers for a product that does not exists, sure wish I could come up with something like that and get paid for it.

[jimrankin]

Those fines are "peanuts" when spread across the various oil companies, probably a couple of percent of all the bonus money paid out because they are "doing such a fine job" (re: record profits). I agree that the EPA isn't doing anything but downgrading the requirements of the oil companies and pocketing a wad of cash but that isn't the way to look at this.

Our auto makers hid their head in the sand when the EPA put in smog requirements and would not spen the money to re-tool for clean burning engines and electronic fuel injection. Took them just about closing to et them to come around to using the technology they already had, but would not invest in.

The gas companies don't have the same motivation (the public choosing better cars made off shore) that the car companies did. We as consumers do not have the option of boycotting gasoline becaues, face it, we have to drive to work in this country since mass transit is a joke and most of us live too far for a bike or walking.

The only way we are going to get a real investment in the sustainable, non food crop altenative energy fuel development is to really soak the oil companies with masive taxes/fines (instead of cutting the bill) and let them recoup with tax credits used to develop the alternate sources.

Yes, I know we will suddenly find ourselves in an artifical "oil shortage" with lines like the post Shaw days but once the oil companies figure out that having control of the alternate source, with tax credits paying most of the capital investment, they will come round. Our government isn't going to be able to get shit done any other way, profit motive breeds advances and investment.

Lets face it, carpooling, planning your shopping trips with several stops in one outing, marketing for the week and not driving to the gym will really cut our needs when the "shortage" hits and unless we step up, we have only ourselves to blame.

I know I'm fortunate and can afford multiple vehicles but I did make the choice that my daily driver had to get at least 25-30 MPG. I work my crews together by where they live as much as possible and encourage them to ride share.

Most of them do when they can.

My parents and grand parents were depression and WWII era stock (first no money, then no gas)and when they had to they sucked it up, shut up and just did it. In all the stories I heard about those eras in my youth no whining was part of it, just pride on where they ended up. Might be time for some of that spirit to come back.

"On your feet, or on your knees" Thanks, Jim R.

[oilteq]

Jim

 

I looked back over my comments, and I do not see where I offered an opinion or suggested a direction we should take in regard to ethanol use. I said it is hard to justify on an economic basis, but the need for subsidies and mandates validate that fact. I said ethanol use will continue to be an issue, and offered an article published today as evidence. Okay, I did imply that the government is ineffective at implementing a change to non-crop ethanol, but you obviously agree. So, I am not sure why your post was directed at me when I have not taken either side of the issue.

 

Now I am curious about why you think pursuing ethanol as fuel is necessary? Your post suggests how, but not why.

 

Blaine

[jimrankin]

I went off on a tangent, not unusual for me, so didn't actually write what I started to and you should not have been left in the header.

I completed another long reply but just deleted it because, well it went off on a tanget too.

It basically stated that we, as a country, do not want to and in all practicality can not get by without cars so we need to figure out what to do for a way to fuel them besides imported oil. Got to get back to work so I'll leave it at that for now.

[ihckb2]

or is it that the U.S. wants to depleat world oil and then hold the rest of the world at ransom before it uses its own. see link below

 

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/u_s__has_massive_oil.htm