zuspiel Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Hi everybody, digging a bit deeper in our new-to-us 2003 S3, I have a couple of engine questions... The car has the "official" zetec supersport engine package: black-top Zetec, TWM throttle bodies, Pectel T2 ECU The O2 sensor appears to be broken (non-wideband). The ECU only sees one voltage switch and always thinks it's running lean in closed loop. Does anybody know what the correct replacement sensor is? Or, how easy it is to upgrade to a wideband? Can the wideband use the same wires as the narrow band? I don't really feel like redoing the loom (and esp. messing with the ECU connector)... Just splicing in a wideband controller into the existing wires would be easy... The ECU coolant temp sensor appears to change calibration depending on the day of the week... What's the correct replacement? Oh, and where is the bloody thing??? Finally, does anybody know what fuel pressure I'm supposed to have at the rail? (gauge on the way, so I don't know the current value). Thank you so much in advance! Best, JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboeric Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I don't know about the Zetec setup specifically, but normally all the O2 sensors are the same, it's the connector that varies. You'll likely have a 4 wire sensor (heated), although it may be a one wire sensor. You'll probably just need to buy a universal Bosch sensor with the correct number of wires, then splice that in. I'm sure someone with more specific info will chime in shortly. A wideband sensor requires a controller, and it will need to emulate a narrow-band signal for your ECU. Not just a splice-it-in job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'm not positive, but I think the Pectel T2 will only run in a closed loop mode with a wide band O2 sensor. You'd have to review the manual. Since you have throttle bodies and no wide band sensor, I'd venture the system has been set up for alpha-N operation. IOW...the narrow band O2 sensor's function is strictly to plug the hole in the tail pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuspiel Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Thanks! It's a 4 wire sensor. I didn't know they were universal... The connector I can deal with. As for the wideband, I was thinking if I can splice the controller to the 4 wires in the loom, that may be an easy way to get a wideband in there. The ECU explicitly supports connecting a wideband and has an option to select it instead of "switched". Unless somebody has done this before, I'd probably go with the narrow band since the wideband is too expensive to take a gamble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuspiel Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'm not positive, but I think the Pectel T2 will only run in a closed loop mode with a wide band O2 sensor. You'd have to review the manual. It goes into closed loop after the sensor warmup delay with the lambda set to "switched". That's how the car came. But it only registers a single switch and always thinks the mix is lean. Wideband closed loop sounds rather nice, though. Esp if I can then log it and check the base map against it. I still don't know all that much about this kind of stuff but am rather interested. Sadly, I don't have a manual and couldn't find one on the interwebs, either... All I have is a piece of software straight out of the 80s with thousands of knobs to twiddle... Eventually, the car will see a dyno and it would help if I had a wideband installed for that, too... Since you have throttle bodies and no wide band sensor, I'd venture the system has been set up for alpha-N operation. IOW...the narrow band O2 sensor's function is strictly to plug the hole in the tail pipe. Hehe :rofl: Yeah, before I got my hands on the car, I assumed it was alpha-N. Last week, I hooked up a laptop for the first time and dug around a bit. The other thing that confused me is that the lambda sensor doesn't show up under the sensor section... I guess it has a dedicated input pin? And the curve for the wideband gets set with wideband controller software? Big reason I started looking into all this in the first place is that it starts like s&*^ when cold. No-go unless you hit the throttle at the correct time, but not too much otherwise it floods and dies... Thanks a lot for your input. I really appreciate it. I'm a newbie when it comes to ECUs (but have a physics and programming background, so I'm rather fascinated ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuspiel Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Hmmm... An Innovate LC-1 wouldn't be *that* expensive... Still not sure how to hook it up. Looking online and comparing wire colors on the sensor (brown, brown, purple, beige) would correspond to (heater, heater, signal, ground). I guess I can figure out which one is the heater ground, feed the LC-1 with +12V, both grounds and connect the wideband analog out of the LC-1 to the signal wire. No modification of the engine harness necessary. Am I on the right path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I think you're on the right track. In the LMconfig (LC-1) software, you can enable narrow band sensor emulation. Alternatively, your Pectel software can possibly be enabled to read a wide band as well. If you change strategies (narrow to wide) in the Pectel, you may be looking at an extensive remapping session. Again, I'm not that familiar with Pectel. Make sure the LC-1 has good power and ground from the battery. They tend to pick up noise if you wire through indirect sources. I don't find much info on the Pectel on-line. Did they get absorbed by somebody else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowflyer Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 What the heck did he say??? Does the Weber need to be re-jetted? Is that what he said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian7 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 For your fuel pressure question, we run 60psi in the Zetec's in our Formula Continentals. By the way, the diaphragms are flimsy, check pressure often as they crap out regularly and will read 100+ when they do and screw up your mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dallasdude Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Pectel was bought by Cosworth. The dealer in the US now is Apexspeed Technology. [/url]http://www.apexspeedtech.com/ The guys at Quicksilver know quit a bit about the T2 also. I have a copy of a later manual somewhere if you need one. You probably don't need to run 60 psi for fuel pressure. I suspect the injectors in your Supersport were upgraded from the factory Focus grey tops (19lb) to something larger. FF2000's/Continentals I believe mostly use stock injectors, but they make about 20 hp over the stock Focus so the higher fuel pressure makes them act like a larger injector than they are. 60 PSI is about 20 more than stock, so it makes a 19 pound injector act like about a 25 pound injector. If you already have a 25 or 30 pound injector (rated at 43.5 PSI), then 60 PSI would give you too much fuel. Bottom line is if the plastic part of the injectors are grey you need every bit of 60 PSI. If not they are probably uprated to a larger injector with a design pressure of 43.5 PSI. 200 NA HP normally requires 25-30 pound injectors. SVT injectors are about 28 pounds. Since you are in the development stage, I would suggest you consider a WB with a direct display. It will let you know what's really going on in real time. You can output the 0-5 volt to the ECU at the same time. Hope this is of some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuspiel Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 So sorry I didn't see the earlier replies. Must have missed the notification email... :-( Thank you so much for the info. Extremely helpful! I do have black injectors and somewhere I vaguely remember reading 3.0 bar somewhere, which would be ~43 psi. I hooked up and then removed a small pressure gauge since it didn't clear the bonnet w/o an elbow which I still need to pick up. Excellent suggestion about the stand-alone WB gauge. I did end up picking up an LC-1 and already connected it. However, in my daze, I made everything neat and tidy but didn't expose the second analog output. I was thinking "well, there's no room for a gauge and I can just hook up the laptop and use logworks to get a digital gauge". But the Pectel software runs fullscreen so I can't see both... I'll probably re-plumb it and add a temporary gauge. dallasdude, you're about have mail ;-) Thanks again, everybody! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klasik-69 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 dallasdude is correct about Apexspeed. I have a Pectel system and was missing the PCM cable. They were able to order for me. They apparently are quite knowledgeable on how the system runs, but they're in California and I'm in Florida. They did recommend someone in my state that can set up the Pectel on a dyno to max out the performance. As an aside, I looked at my notes from my Pectel disk that Jon @ Caterham USA provided the original buyer. The notes indicate that if you're running a non-catalyst VCT engine, choose either "noncat" or VCT422 options and the engine should run fine. A guy named Greg wrote the notes. I trust he works or worked at Caterham USA. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you on this. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuspiel Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Thanks, Mike! Yes, I've had good interactions with Apexspeed so far. He didn't recommend anybody around here though. "We sometimes come to Texas, maybe we can work something out..." Ponying up for even part of travel expenses isn't quite in the budget, I fear, though The map that is currently on the CPU is not one of the ones mentioned in the text documents. When I finally got the cable, first thing I did was drop the rev limiter. It was set to 8k+... Which explains why I never hit it... Friend of mine blew up a Zetec with only slight over-revving... I don't know what else has changed in that map. I had a gander around that CD I got and found both the noncat and VCT422 maps. I don't have a cat (well, a muffler with a built-in cat came with my car and is in a closet ). What is a VCT engine? (excuse my ignorance). How do I know if I have one? Calling Caterham USA is also on my list. They were closed last week and I haven't gotten around to it this week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dallasdude Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 As far as your VCT question....there are three different Zetecs used in Caterhams. Mystique/Contour Variable exhaust cam timing (commonly referred to as VCT) Focus No variable timing on either cam Focus SVT Variable intake cam timing (mostly just called SVT) VCT/SVT is easily identified with a "bump" on the plastic timing belt cover over the variable camshaft nose. All three cylinder heads and cam covers are different also. Yours should be Focus with a black plastic cam cover. No bumps. As far as tuning your car, knowledge of your ECU and software is a definite plus, but the basic principles are the same for most all ECU's....especially if you have a file that already works. If the dyno operator worked with that ECU software before than everything goes much faster. Some are more open to working with new ECU's so ask around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klasik-69 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) With regards to rev limiter and how much revs can you handle, Jon @ Caterham told me the engine has no issues whatsoever running to 8K and even beyond. I'm like you, I'd rather err on the side of caution. You know its less likely to blow up at 7.5K, then set the rev limiter to that point. Before I even knew what the rev limitations were, I used to shift at 7K just to be safe. The guy who owned the car originally had put a red marker line on the tach at 6800 rpm but I thought it was artificially low. Also, I suspect he never hooked up a laptop to the engine PCM since he didn't even have the Pectel cable. I've not had a chance yet to hook up since I'm a little lazy and the engine runs so strong all the way from idle to 8K. But I'm sure with a little further tuning by someone who knows what they're doing and the help of a dyno, more can be had. Being new to the R300, I'm still learning. Also, I don't know squat about PCM maps and all that goes with it. By the way, my O2 sensor is a four wire unit and there is only one located at the entry of the muffler. I couldn't find any numbers or other designation on the sensor but it could be underneath where I can't see it. Mine does not have a cat unless the muffler combines as a cat also. My engine set up was built by Jon @ CaterhamUSA in 2004 for the original buyer. It is supposed to be 202 HP but has yet to be checked on a dyno. Somebody chimed in and said the O2 sensors are all the same aside from being either 2 wire or 4 wire. I'm not sure its true. My 97 Jeep Wrangler had a new generic O2 sensor installed and the engine would not run properly until completely warmed up (8 to 10 minutes) and if you shut it down, it would repeat the same thing even if the engine was warm. The dealer told me I needed a new O2 sensor to make it run right. I was leary about this and balked at first but the dealer guaranteed it would fix it or they would put the generic back in and not charge me. Ok, put in the Chrysler's $138 O2 sensor and let's see. They were right, problem went away. So I don't know if they found a way to scam me or if there is a difference in O2 sensors. Parts houses list about 20 different Bosch O2 sensors, must be a reason or they'd only stock 2 types, 2 wire and 4 wire. But I don't really know much about this so I could be all wet. Edited March 16, 2012 by Klasik-69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuspiel Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Dallas, thanks a lot for the VCT explanation. And you're correct, no bumps on my cover. As far as tuning is concerned, I have a line on a local shop that did a good job on a friend's 7. You bring the laptop and some basic knowledge on how the software works, they do the rest. That's what I'm working up to. Klasik - another friend had a silver-top Zetec with the rev limiter set to around 7.8k. After a while, it made more and more noise and then disintegrated. He cautioned me about revving them too high w/o a built bottom end and valve springs. The muffler and cat are often combined in one can. My muffler-only can is shorter than the one with the cat. I do agree that a broken/wrong lambda sensor can lead to cold running issues. That's why I changed mine. Now it just seems the ECU doesn't quite understand it correctly. It may just be the output range of the WB. All the plots I've seen in the ECU software have a lambda range of 0.8-1.2. Currently, the WB outputs 0-5V for lambda 0.5-1.5. What's strange is that the lambda sensor doesn't show up under the sensors menu... You configure it under mapping corrections. I think that's something I'll have to work out with Apexspeed. A local tuner won't be of any help in that area. However, right at engine start, the lambda is still heating up and the engine can't go closed loop anyway. The sensor takes 20-30 sec to warm up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klasik-69 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I hope you figure it out. You're way ahead of the game compared to what I know. All I know is most people say the Pectel PCM is good but antiquated compared to new stuff out there. Also, the lack of support on a local level leaves a lot to be desired. The people at Apexspeed are very nice and cooperative but they're in California and neither you nor I am. The guy they recommended to me in Ft. Lauderdale is 150 miles away and I'm not really tickled about making that much of a trip to see someone I don't know. To tell you the truth, if my motor craps out, I'd yank it out and go with the 1.8 Miata motor with a turbo and Megasquirt PCM. If there ever was a motor that is almost explosion proof, it has to be the Miata motor. The only problem is that in stock form, its one guttless power source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoefi Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The ECU coolant temp sensor appears to change calibration depending on the day of the week... What's the correct replacement? Oh, and where is the bloody thing??? The coolant temp sensor is screwed into the thermostate housing. It's located right beside the spark plug coil module at the end of the cylinder head. Caterham USA should carry the sensor or can confirm if it is a Ford unit. For Pectel tuning information and fuel pressure, call Quicksilver Engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoefi Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Klasik - another friend had a silver-top Zetec with the rev limiter set to around 7.8k. After a while, it made more and more noise and then disintegrated. He cautioned me about revving them too high w/o a built bottom end and valve springs. Zetec motors has a documented problem with the stock oil pump gear blowing up at 7400+ rpm. Most Focus owners with high output engines know about it. There is a steel oil pump gear upgrade from most Focus hp shops. Without this upgrade, most focus owners will set the rev limiter to 7200. Edited March 19, 2012 by hoefi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuspiel Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Hoefi, thanks a lot for all the info. Quicksilver *Engines*, ah... Just bookmarked their site. Excellent to know about the oil pump gear. I did set my soft cut at 7k and the hard cut at 7.3k. The soft cut works rather well (and sounds evil ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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