Fuel Pump Alternative?

[jlumba81]

7 isn't starting when cranked. Swapped around the relays and fuses checked out ok but no pressure shown on fuel pressure tester. Also pulled hose off the fuel rail and cycled the key a few times, no gas flowing. Car starts when starter fluid is sprayed in cylinders. Also sparkplugs show that cylinders 1 & 2 are a bit lean. So it looks like my fuel pump has been slowly failing and now finally decided to die. Is there any easily US sourced fuel pump that will match the stock caterham pump? I was thinking of using a walbro fuel pump but wasn't sure on dimensions and flow rates.

Edited June 23, 2012 by jlumba81

[Sean]

Is there any easily US sourced fuel pump that will match the stock caterham pump? I was thinking of using a walbro fuel pump but wasn't sure on dimensions and flow rates.

 

I went through this not long ago. I went with a Deatsch Werks DW200, choosing their "universal install" variation of that pump. I had to bore out the white plastic carrier by about .080" and get a different fuel strainer sock doo-hickey from the local auto parts store (Airtex FS175), but it was otherwise a simple installation and I now have solid unwavering fuel pressure. I bought the pump for 99 bucks + tax & shipping from their U.S. distributor, Rally Sport Direct in Utah.

 

I have no affiliation with any of these companies, but so far, the pump works as advertised (and has a 3-year warranty) and the distributor was not unpleasant to work with.

 

 

Full details (with some photos) here.

[jlumba81]

Thanks for the tip and the link was very helpful. I've purchased from Rally Sport Direct for subaru parts before and had no issues w/ them. I guess my other question is that there isn't any manual fuel pressure adjustment so will the stock SVT fueling system/ecu keep the psi at the correct levels?

[Sean]

I don't know. I have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator on my Duratec (similar to Alaskossie's). I would think your fuel system probably has a FPR somewhere, probably near the fuel rail.

edit: Your regulator may or may not be adjustable, but in any case, it should regulate the fuel pressure.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Sean

[11Budlite]

I'm pretty sure on the later Zetecs and SVT models that there is no fuel pressure regulator and no return line back to the tank. Instead, there is a fuel pressure sensor/transducer on the fuel rail which senses the actual fuel pressure in the rail and sends a signal to the ECU which adjusts the fuel pump "on" time or speed (not sure which) to maintain the correct fuel pressure. I'm assuming that the Caterham SVT application works the same way.

[jlumba81]

Yep the fuel pressure regulator/sensor is on the front end of the fuel rail. Thanks for the input, I'll get that pump ordered. I'm missing the sunny weather. It finally hit 85 deg after most of May being in the 40s.

[Klasik-69]

My Zetec with TWM ITB's has the fuel pressure set at 60 psi and I suspect the tuning was done at that pressure. I tried lowering it down to 50 psi and the idle got really rough and the engine developed a flat spot coming off the line. Cranked it back up to 60 psi and the issues went away. You may want to look at ECU set up file, if you have one, to see what the fuel pressure is set up for. If you put a fuel pump with a max capability of 3 bars (3 x 14.7 psi), you may be too low for current set up. Again, it depends on how the tuning on your motor was done. I was able to access the setup on my Pectel T2 ECU and read the setup notes on the current loaded maps. It said 60 psi. Yours may be diferent. Check first before ordering a pump which may not be quite what you need.

[Klasik-69]

I'm pretty sure on the later Zetecs and SVT models that there is no fuel pressure regulator and no return line back to the tank. Instead, there is a fuel pressure sensor/transducer on the fuel rail which senses the actual fuel pressure in the rail and sends a signal to the ECU which adjusts the fuel pump "on" time or speed (not sure which) to maintain the correct fuel pressure. I'm assuming that the Caterham SVT application works the same way.

 

Not mine, and its a 2004 Zetec 202 HP built by Jon @ Caterham USA. It uses the TWM/Borla ITB's with Lucas low impedance injectors and has the TWM regulator on the fuel rail between #3 & #4 with a return line to the tank. Pressure is high at 60 psi and is set up to work at this level. I'm not sure how many variations there are of this motor or how the FI setups vary depending on HP version. I know very little about Caterhams but I do know mine.

[11Budlite]

Not mine, and its a 2004 Zetec 202 HP built by Jon @ Caterham USA. It uses the TWM/Borla ITB's with Lucas low impedance injectors and has the TWM regulator on the fuel rail between #3 & #4 with a return line to the tank. Pressure is high at 60 psi and is set up to work at this level. I'm not sure how many variations there are of this motor or how the FI setups vary depending on HP version. I know very little about Caterhams but I do know mine.

 

I should have specified the stock setup from Ford, not the modified engines with ITB's. I'm sure some of the SVT-powered Caterhams have the stock Ford induction system.

[Klasik-69]

I should have specified the stock setup from Ford, not the modified engines with ITB's. I'm sure some of the SVT-powered Caterhams have the stock Ford induction system.

 

I didn't mean to interfere or dispute your post, I was just saying mine was different and his may also be different. Believe me, I know very little of the technical details of these cars and the many variants, but I'm learning every day thanks to this site and its many very knowledgeable members. Right now I'm trying to learn the Pectel T2 system to figure out exactly how to fix a lean condition on the upper rpm. It may take me a while, and a few wasted dyno runs but I will dial in this car properly hopefully before gasoline engines become outlawed.

[Sean]

Right now I'm trying to learn the Pectel T2 system to figure out exactly how to fix a lean condition on the upper rpm.

 

I had a lean condition at upper rpm under load. The problem turned out to be the Caterham-supplied fuel pump being insufficient. The solution was... see post #2 of this thread.

[11Budlite]

I didn't mean to interfere or dispute your post, I was just saying mine was different and his may also be different. Believe me, I know very little of the technical details of these cars and the many variants, but I'm learning every day thanks to this site and its many very knowledgeable members. Right now I'm trying to learn the Pectel T2 system to figure out exactly how to fix a lean condition on the upper rpm. It may take me a while, and a few wasted dyno runs but I will dial in this car properly hopefully before gasoline engines become outlawed.

 

I checked out jlumba's car back when Croc owned it and if my memory isn't completely gone I thought it had the stock SVT motor in it that's why I mentioned the Ford return-less system. No problem, it's all good!

 

As far as your lean condition at high rpm, if you can't fix it by increasing the injector "on" time and your fuel pressure is ok, you might have to go to bigger injectors. Typically you don't want to use injectors that have to be "on" more than 80% of the time (80% duty cycle) at maximum fuel demand. There are formulas that you can use to determine appr what size injector you need for a particular application. On my Emerald ECU you can see the injector duty cycle displayed on the live adjustments screen as you're driving. I'm hoping on your Pectel you have the same info available to you. Can you hook up a laptop and monitor what's going on with it running? If not I'd get an appointment with a knowledgeable dyno operator to fix that lean condition before it causes bigger problems. :ack:

 

After seeing Sean's post it sounds like you could have a fuel pressure problem...

Edited June 25, 2012 by 11Budlite

[jlumba81]

Finally got around to siphoning out the gas and ended up sucking out a seed pod/pinecone. So definitely need to clean out the tank when I pull the pump.

[Klasik-69]

I checked out jlumba's car back when Croc owned it and if my memory isn't completely gone I thought it had the stock SVT motor in it that's why I mentioned the Ford return-less system. No problem, it's all good!

 

As far as your lean condition at high rpm, if you can't fix it by increasing the injector "on" time and your fuel pressure is ok, you might have to go to bigger injectors. Typically you don't want to use injectors that have to be "on" more than 80% of the time (80% duty cycle) at maximum fuel demand. There are formulas that you can use to determine appr what size injector you need for a particular application. On my Emerald ECU you can see the injector duty cycle displayed on the live adjustments screen as you're driving. I'm hoping on your Pectel you have the same info available to you. Can you hook up a laptop and monitor what's going on with it running? If not I'd get an appointment with a knowledgeable dyno operator to fix that lean condition before it causes bigger problems. :ack:

 

After seeing Sean's post it sounds like you could have a fuel pressure problem...

 

The injectors are Lucas 320 cc type, 4 of them, which should be ample.

 

Being a novice (read that ignorant), I enlisted Tom's help (1turbofocus), the most knowledgeable person I know on these engines. If I didn't know better, I'd bet he designed the motor for Ford. So this week, we will hook up my desk top computer to the car, have Tom wired in on the computer, and let him adjust as he sees fit. I tried to hook up my lap top but it doesn't have a serial port and after an incredible number of tries with a serial-USB adapter and numerous drivers, the lap top refuses to communicate with Comm Port 4 or 5, and insists on using Comm Port 15 which the Pectel doesn't link to. I should take a picture of the rolling table I built for the desktop computer to hook up to the car, it would give you guys a big laugh and likely get me the clown of the year award. Hey, whatever works.

 

Hey, just saw the cute little lexicon on the side bar, :deadhorse:that's me trying to adjust my Pectel. Which then results in :banghead:

[Klasik-69]

Finally got around to siphoning out the gas and ended up sucking out a seed pod/pinecone. So definitely need to clean out the tank when I pull the pump.

 

That would make that bio-fuel, woudln't it ???:bigear: Didn't find any Kodiak Bear dung in there too, did you ? Ok, all kidding aside, how user friendly is it owning a Caterham or Lotus in Alaska ...........you have potholes bigger than the car, and well, the temperature isn't exactly conducive to driving around in a convertible, never mind the rain and wind, or attacks from hungry grizzlies who eat bigger food than the car you're in. You guys are tough !

[jlumba81]

No problems owning it as long as you don't mind a bit of wind and rain. My full weather top has a broken zipper that I still need to get fix so I bought a softbits shower cap to go w/ their half hood. I work for a food vendor and have walmart as my main store so I end up having it parked in their lot for 5-7 hrs at a time. I have more trouble w/ birds than w/ people messing w/ it. One time I even forgot the key in the ignition for 6 hrs when I was working. We have good road maintenance so not many potholes on the main roads. Ask Alaskossie for potholes and wild life issues. There's moose on the road up in Anchorage, but only tiny Sitka deer down in Juneau.

[Alaskossie]

Klasik-69,

 

A little off-topic....

 

I've got the larger road hazards (i. e., moose) up here in the Anchorage area, but I've yet to encounter one on the road in my Seven (knock on wood....!). However, I've had several encounters, a couple pretty close, in other cars. I'm thinking I may be able to drive under an adult moose in the Seven, but may lose the windscreen.

 

Potholes aren't too bad in my area, but the lack of good paved Seven roads definitely is a drawback to Seven ownership. I've located a very good 9-mile mountain road, about 20 minutes out of Anchorage, and went on an 18-mile round-trip blat on it last week. I started at 10:30 pm, and ran the whole road under daylight conditions, on the longest day of the year. It was great.

 

jlumba, if you drive up to Anchorage next September, we'll have to get Jim O'Malley and his Caterham SV, and make a dedicated trip on this road.

 

Here is a photo of 2/3 of all of the Sevens in Alaska. Also, two weeks ago I had a visitor, Giles Cooper, driving his Lotus Elise from Australia to the Arctic Circle, via California and Colorado. See: http://elsiefrombottomtotop.blogspot.com/2012/06/anchorage.html

 

After a 4-month odyssey, Giles has finally made it back to Anacortes, Washington, where his car will be shipped back to Australia.

 

We believe it may be the first Lotus to cross the Arctic Circle in North America.

[Klasik-69]

You guys are tough. Good thing about hitting a moose in a 7 is you won't be walking around with a limp afterwards, you'll be dead on impact. They'd have to dig the moose out of 7 to find you, if they find you. Glad to hear you guys don't have potholes. I was in Fairbanks in August 2006 doing the land tour down to Denali followed by a ride down to Anchorage. Rains caused a landslide on the rails, then followed by a landslide on the road down to Anchorage. We got a ride on an old school bus back to Fairbanks and we hit every pot hole on the way. One time I thought the driver missed one so he stopped, backed up, and hit it just for good measure. I know there weren't any springs on that bus, axle welded to the frame for good measure.

[bsimon]

"CAUTION - RIGHT HAND DRIVE"

 

That must let the mouth breathers know if it was the passenger or the driver that was giving them the finger.:jester::jester:

[Klasik-69]

Now back to the fuel pump issues. Come to find out my injectors are incorrect. Pectel runs high impedance injectors only and mine are Lucas 2.5 ohm 320 cc (30 lb) units. Also, my engine was set up to run at 60 psi by those who gave it birth. So I adjusted the pressure down to 45 psi and replaced the injectors with 42 lb high impedance Bosch injectors and will have to remap the ECU. No big deal since it was all wrong anyway. When you're looking for a fuel pump, keep the pressure requirements in mind. You should have a wide choice of fuel pumps for the 3 bar (45 psi) settings, very few with the 60 psi capability. If you have to remap the injector times (millisecond pulses), you could easily just increase all of them across the board by the percentage of change in your initial pressure, then get Tom (1turbofocus) to hook up to your computer and do a dial in for the fine adjustment.