Changing out a Honda S2000 for a Superformance S1?

[B-T]

I have been thinking about getting a Lotus 7 style car for about a year. MY currrent fun car is a Honda S2000 (all stock) that is fun but not exciting. I previously had a Ginetta G20 (like a full bodied version of the 7) that was very exciting, and sometimes scary.

 

I am looking for opinions on the Superformance S1 from a handling and reliability perspective. I have located a good candidate but want to get a good idea of what to expect before making a trek to go see it and possibly buy it.

 

I have read one report of a guy who was upset that his mumford link broke on the track and was very dangerous. I also have read from one person who autocrossed an S1 and said that it was a very finicky handling car, but lots of fun. I do not consider myself a great driver and the last thing I want to do is get in over my head with a twitchy car. Any links to information or first hand experience of your driving impressions (especially when pushing the car pretty fast) would be greatly appreciated.

 

I have also read that the S1 is the most plush and nicest finished of the 7 variants. The fit and finish are supposed to be really well done, especially compared to the kit car feel of my old Ginetta. Again, thanks in advance for any info or links you might be able to give me. I know S1 Steve really likes his car, and it looks fantastic in the photos to me. I was a bit disappointed that none of the S1's that went to NJMP went on the track so that I could get a good idea of the handling in comparison to other 7 style cars.

 

BT

[xcarguy]

The SP S1 is a well built car with SPs signature fit and finish. However, something you may want to take into consideration along with the idea of purchasing an S1 is the availability of parts on down the road. These cars were produced in limited number and haven't been in production for a few years now. Having said that, if I found one I liked and wanted, I'd get it and enjoy it. If you've got the itch, get the 'twitch' to go with it. As for the Honda, you could keep it for the days when you're feeling a bit tame.

:driving:

Edited March 13, 2013 by xcarguy

[Croc]

.....Any links to information or first hand experience of your driving impressions (especially when pushing the car pretty fast) would be greatly appreciated.

 

......I know S1 Steve really likes his car, and it looks fantastic in the photos to me. I was a bit disappointed that none of the S1's that went to NJMP went on the track so that I could get a good idea of the handling in comparison to other 7 style cars.

 

While you are right that we did not get an S1 on track at NJMP, DaveD on this forum has tracked/autocrossed his S1 and was hoping to put it out on track with all the sevens at NJMP at some point (hopefully this year!). Drop him a PM here and seek his input.

 

 

Personally I feel the quality of an S1 is a clear step above other sevens that I have seen straight from the manufacturer. The only time that seems to differ is when you can an individual builder who goes to extreme lengths to really produce something special.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Croc

[B-T]

Thanks Croc! I sent a PM to DaveD.

BT

[crewst]

I love my S1. I prefer the body over that of other 7s, but I do wish we had "real" suspensions in the back. Several times I've had to let off the gas during a "spirited drive" because of the uneven or bumpy road. I wouldn't trade it for anything though. LOVE to drive it. I imagine all 7 owners likely would say something similar. I have never tracked mine, so I can't offer any information on track use.

[B-T]

Thanks for the info. I also prefer the look of the S1. I'm not much of a purist, so the more modern look of the S1 appeals to me.

 

Does the solid axle want to jump or pull on rough surfaces, or lumpy roads? Just curious.

 

It is really a tough decision for me because I have spent a year getting this relatively boring S2000 in great shape with new interior, tires, stereo, etc... and I am not sure if I would miss it. I loved the Ginetta, but it handled absolutely incredibly. It was scary sometimes not knowing if the car was going to make a turn, and I am thinking the S1 might be similar in that regard. I am hoping for a very predictable handling car with good recovery abilities if I go in to a corner too fast. Would you say the S1 tends to oversteer or understeer? I just don't want to crash!

 

Not counting the aero difference, would you say an S1 corners better than a stock Elise? The Ginetta I had was close, but slightly slower than an Elise most of the time. Most of my fun driving is at kind of low speeds in the mountains, maybe 50 mph or so. One of the best things about the Ginetta is that I didn't have to actually go fast to feel like I was going fast because of the weight and lowness of the car. I think the S1 is similar that way. The newer cars (like the S2000) seem to be so well built and somewhat insulated that you have to go really fast to feel like you are going fast at all.

 

Again, thanks for the replies!

 

Edit: I noticed you are in PA. The car I am considering is also in PA, although I don't know where. It is a Royal Blue car with Piper cams, JE pistons, and some head work (port & polish), plus some performance transmission stuff. I worry that this particular car might be built more for performance and less for reliability. The seller's last name is Ellis.

Edited March 13, 2013 by B-T

[sevenup]

After admiring the Superformance S1 for several years, I finally got a chance to spend some time with one late last year. I loved the aesthetics of the car and the build quality, but my feeling was (despite the beautiful interior) that the ingress/exgress and seat room was considerably more restrictive than my Stalker. Also the low end torque did not compare to my to my little 3.4L. Still thinking about that car but not as much. Having said that, I would think the later models of the S2000 engine with the broader torque range would be huge improvement over the standard S1 engine .

[B-T]

I'm not at all worried about the ergonomics or the interior room. I'm only about 5'-7" and I was happy with the spacein the G20. The seats in that car were 17" I think, and while it was snug I was okay with it. I am more concerned about the handling and the reliability. I drove Dennis Brunton's Stalker when I wrote an article about it, and it had lots of grunt, even without the supercharger. My feeling is that these cars really don't need big power since they weigh so little. One of the main attractions is the feeling of speed you get when driving a car like a Birkin, Caterham, or Stalker even when you are only going 40-50 through the mountains. The raw nature of the cars makes you feel more connected with the road, and that is a great thing.

 

The engine of the S2000 is no doubt its strong suit. It looks okay, but kind of bland. The real problem is that it feels a little detached from the driving experience. I have similar feelings about the Lotus Elise that I have driven. Nice cars, but they are too well built and don't offer that direct connection feel I liked so much in my Ginetta. Think of where you want the car it is is almost magically there since the steering is so direct and quick.

 

My other thought would be to just keep the S2000 and go to an aftermarket exhaust and suspension to make it a little more edgy. I have a 2006 model with the larger engine and all the electronic gadgetry (traction and stability control, etc...). I just don't know if I want to keep putting oney into a car I am just sort of attracted to. My thought is if I get a good enough feeling about the general handling and reliability here I will go test drive the one for sale. If I like it I will just buy it and sell the S2000. I just don't want to get my hopes up if the general consensus is that the S1 is a well built and good loooking car that will bite you in the handling department if you make the slightest mistake. I'm just not that good of a driver to enjoy a car like that.

 

I am not going to ask this same question on the S2000 forums because the typical S2000 driver would just talk crap about the S1 without knowing anything about it. I have a very unfortunate bunch of peers driving the S2000 typically...

 

BT

[S1Steve]

Thanks for the info. I also prefer the look of the S1. I'm not much of a purist, so the more modern look of the S1 appeals to me.

 

Does the solid axle want to jump or pull on rough surfaces, or lumpy roads? Just curious.

 

It is really a tough decision for me because I have spent a year getting this relatively boring S2000 in great shape with new interior, tires, stereo, etc... and I am not sure if I would miss it. I loved the Ginetta, but it handled absolutely incredibly. It was scary sometimes not knowing if the car was going to make a turn, and I am thinking the S1 might be similar in that regard. I am hoping for a very predictable handling car with good recovery abilities if I go in to a corner too fast. Would you say the S1 tends to oversteer or understeer? I just don't want to crash!

 

Not counting the aero difference, would you say an S1 corners better than a stock Elise? The Ginetta I had was close, but slightly slower than an Elise most of the time. Most of my fun driving is at kind of low speeds in the mountains, maybe 50 mph or so. One of the best things about the Ginetta is that I didn't have to actually go fast to feel like I was going fast because of the weight and lowness of the car. I think the S1 is similar that way. The newer cars (like the S2000) seem to be so well built and somewhat insulated that you have to go really fast to feel like you are going fast at all.

 

Again, thanks for the replies!

 

Edit: I noticed you are in PA. The car I am considering is also in PA, although I don't know where. It is a Royal Blue car with Piper cams, JE pistons, and some head work (port & polish), plus some performance transmission stuff. I worry that this particular car might be built more for performance and less for reliability. The seller's last name is Ellis.

 

I'll try to answer some of your questions.

 

I ran a track event a few years with Bob Ellis, but I thought he lived in Utah.

 

The Mumford link did break on one S1 after many track days and who knows what .

 

Superformance SA, sent out a update design to reinforce the mounts . I made 2, gave one

 

to a fellow S1 owner and was never installed, mine has the updated bracket, but your

 

never going to need it.

 

The key to making a S1 handle well is tires, they came with a very poor choice of tires.

 

Easy fix with the tires.

 

If you are oversteering or understeering on the street with a good tire, your going to

 

meet your maker soon.

 

Read the comment about there hard to get in and out off. 6"3' and a 230 , and I get in and

 

out with not much of a problem.

 

Problems- There are no body parts to be found. And don't even think about breaking the windshield, but I have a new frame in black. Hope this helps....

Edited March 13, 2013 by S1Steve

[B-T]

Thanks Steve! It looks like I will probably try to make the trip to drive the car next week sometime if my questions at the local DMV get decent answers. I am pretty sure they will. I'm also going on a few days of driving in the mountains with the S2000 tomorrow and Saturday. I am going to try my best to really enjoy the car... I agree about losing it on the street being much too dangerous, I toned it down quite a bit after having a few near incidents when I first took my Ginetta up to the mountains.

 

Thanks again!

 

BT

[S1Steve]

B-T, If the car is aready in Pa.,I would wonder why you would have troubles with the DMV.

As I sit back and think about the track day with Bob Ellis 7 or 8 years ago, I recall him

 

having done some good engine work to that S1. That S1 also had a proper tune from our forum member John K, back when we were

 

in the Web-con tuning business. And Bob Ellis is a great guy.

 

I remember him having family in Pa. Let us know how it works out....

Edited March 13, 2013 by S1Steve

[Kess]

Hi B-T,

 

I am a former S1 owner. I had my S1 for 3 years but ended up making the poor decision to get a different toy car as I thought I would use it more frequently than I drove the S1 (BMW M3 Vert).

 

Here is a link to info about the S1 and my car (you may have already seen this if you searched): http://www.gmsr.info/pre2007/s1sale.htm

 

My S1 was the single vehicle that had the broken Mumford link. I purchased it from an estate. The former owner was a frequent racer and was killed in a track accident (in a different car). He purchased the car from the first owner who was an avid track driver. This person was the one who broke the Mumford Link and who by the end of his ownership was unhappy with the car for a myriad of reasons. I knew all about his unhappiness with the car prior to purchasing and had a number of conversations with him about what he thought the car's shortcomings were.

 

When I purchased the S1 I was coming from a 1990 Miata that I had done a bunch of work on. This included a FM turbo kit and lots of other performance mods. The car was very fun to drive but as often happens when you get the itch (I think it is happening for you now) I wanted something else and a 7 was that something.

 

I flew down to PA to see the S1. I bought it and then drove it 400+ miles back home (on race tires!) to VT (in the winter!). The car needed some work as it had been sitting in a storage shed for some time. You can see details on some of the improvements I made here: http://www.gmsr.info/pre2007/S1.htm

 

I also upgraded the throttle linkage as the stock system routed over the header and caused the cable to melt and made the throttle sticky. There are lots of ways to fix this and I am sure I have info and photos of many of them.

 

Okay back to the car. I really enjoyed the car. I ditched the 16 inch wheels and used the 15 inch wheels that came with it. I put on some sticky tires which improved the ride and handling very nicely. The roads in VT are not always in good shape. I found the S1 dealt with these imperfections quite well.

 

The car was very well put together other then the issues I improved (gas cap/ filler, throttle cable linkage, exhaust system). I did have an occasion where the plug for the speedometer in the transmission disappeared. I noticed this as I was pulling out of my garage (puddle of trans fluid on the floor). I put the car back in and took another car and latter figured out what was wrong and worked hard to get a plug back in place (it is intended to be installed when the trans is out of the car). That was the only mechanical issue I had with the car in the time I owned it. As with all these cars it is helpful if you are handy and are not afraid to take a crack at fixing things that might be wrong.

 

The car is very nice inside and that carries over under the hood and the tunk. I think the top and doors are very well thought out. I especially liked that the windows in the doors could go up and down. I mostly drove with the doors on as they acted as a windblocker. The heater worked pretty well on cool days. I liked the in the windshield defroster which worked well.

 

I loved the steering on the car. I still dream about it! It was incredibly direct. No other car has come close to this feeling. I live in the mts. of VT and often get out and drive our twisty mt. roads (

&

). The S1 was great on these days. On the handling side I would describe it as all good up to 8.5/10s. Once you get past this point I found that the car does not tolerate foolish operation. As an example, if I went into a turn around 9/10s and let off the throttle the car wanted to rotate. Which if you were not anticipating this behavior could certainly bite you. I am pretty sure this level of speed is not socially acceptable on the open road, but not sure how you drive so you may get there. I guess I would say when in doubt give it more throttle! Wider tires on the rear (I had all 4 the same size) could possible tame this behavior (much like what was done with the Honda S2000) if this troubles you.

 

My other complaint was the Webcon fuel injection system. I have been used to a programable ECU and the Webcon is not that type of system. It uses a chip for programing and you need special equipment to burn the chip. In the US only John did any of that. My car tended to run rich and there was no easy fix for this despite having upgraded the chips several times. I considered going to an alternative ECU Emerald was one thought.

 

Anyway as I noted at the start I sold the S1. I got that BMW and never bonded with it. It was gone in a year. I went back to a nice 2000 Miata with all the aftermarket speed goodies. The car has an FM Turbo system and so much more. It is very fun to drive and practical too! It sounds great and never fails to put a smile on my face. In spite of that I have been looking for a replacement 7. I have found one and just like you will be having a look at it shortly. I decided to try a different 7 this time out (Caterham). I also plan to keep the other toy as well.

 

Glad to answer any questions or put you in touch with other who might be able to. I have the S1 build manual posted if you want to see how they are put together. http://www.gmsr.info/pre2007/S1_Manual.pdf

 

Look forward to hear how it all works out. Perhaps we could meet up when I go to get my new 7. Where are you in PA?

 

Best!

 

Gary

Edited March 14, 2013 by Kess

[B-T]

Wow, great posts guys! To clear up, I am in Georgia, and the 13 counties that make up the metro Atlanta are require emissions for anything titled newer than a 1987. This car was titled as a 1965 Lotus Super Seven in Montana, and it is indeed Jim Ellis's car. I think the answers have given me enough good vibes to go check the car out for myself. I am decent with a wrench, although my current house doesn't have the space I am used to for working on the cars. In 5 years of ownership with the Ginetta (which Hayes Harris of Wirewheel says is nowhere close to the quality of the S1) I only had about $800 in maintenance and repair at a shop. The rest I did on my own. I think the driving impressions are very similar to what I enjoyed most about my other little car.

 

I showed a Birkin to my family prior to buying the Ginetta and they said "That looks old." I recently showed my family pictures of the S1 and they said "That looks old." Funny how women don't get it. I think all Sevens look really good, but I prefer the more finished look of the S1 interior and the body style looks to be my favorite also.

 

Thanks again for the replies, and I will defintiely be active here if/when I get the car. I am an underemployed architect so I don't have much to do these days.

 

|

B

[speedwagon]

Ditto on the info you have been given. Have #22 with a 13b rotary and prefer it to my Miata even for long trips (750 one day) except for the ac. Am 6' 175 and old and it fits me well, the Ca. SF dealer has a few windshield glasses and sells sf stuff on ebay, snakebite (goggle) has a kit build manual with some info on front alingment, tires and pressure change the animal a lot 1/4 lb can be noticed on the street, Hate sf for making the car an orphan, but just consider it a "one off".