Wilwood pedals

[subtlez28]

I currently have two individual Wilwood floor mount pedals for the brakes and clutch, and a custom set up from Brunton for my accelerator pedal(on my Stalker M-spec).

 

I'm looking to go to a separate (2) master cylinder brake set up with a balance bar. That lead me to these:

http://www.wilwood.com/Pedals/PedalProd.aspx?itemno=340-12410

 

They are a bit wide for my narrow foot box, but I think if I move them back some I can make them work. I have room to move my seat back.

 

Before I drop the coin, has anyone tried them?

 

I look forward to any feedback.

 

I'm honestly not satisfied with my current pedal set up.

[toedrag]

Is it an issue of front & rear brake balance? Or, can you elaborate on the problem(s) you're trying to solve?

[xcarguy]

subtle,

 

While my Wilwood setup is a few years old, it is a balance-bar type and works great (from my perspective). Here's a link from my build you can peruse:

 

http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=6789

[subtlez28]

Is it an issue of front & rear brake balance? Or, can you elaborate on the problem(s) you're trying to solve?

 

It is indeed. The fronts lock up under heavy braking well before the rears. I have an adjustable proportioning valve inline with the rears, but it is all the way open.

 

This issue was discussed in another thread, by another Storker owner:

http://usa7s.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9946

 

His solution was to plumb a prop valve to the fronts. While it apparently worked, I am not comfortable with this concept.

 

The good news is your brakes are a bit different. Early M-specs had Miata power booster, stock Miata rear brakes and in my case upgraded Miata fronts with Wilwood calipers.

 

So this may or may not be an issue for your chassis.

 

subtle,

 

While my Wilwood setup is a few years old, it is a balance-bar type and works great (from my perspective). Here's a link from my build you can peruse:

 

http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=6789

 

I had looked at your set up in the past. I think we discussed this before: though your even earlier Storker set up is yet different again (using GM brakes) I like your set up.

 

I debated with Glen over the need for power assist. I really like the manual steering feel and am glad I went with no assist there. I think I will also like manual brakes.

 

I want to go to the balance bar, and Wilwood even recommends staggered size masters for front and rear (3/4 and 7/8 they said).

 

Hopefully this solves the problem.

 

I could make it all work with the divorced pedal set up. I'm just a little unhappy with the pedal set up anyway. My hope is this will be cleaner.

 

This pedal set up might be an even easier set up in an XL, Toedrag. I'm not sure how much larger your footwell is, but imagine it is wider enough to clear these.

 

As for right at the moment, I was just looking for feedback on the pedals themselves. They are just shy of 10" wide, so not a perfect fit for my cramped footwell, but I may give them a shot and mount them further rearward.

[toedrag]

I remember that thread...I feel like there is something else going on, but not sure what. When I have brake fluid in my car, after a test drive or two, ensuring that the brakes are more or less working, I plan to put a pressure gauge on each corner, one at a time, to see what's happening. In theory, the pressure should be the same at all 4 corners with the bias valve opened up all the way, but I have a feeling it won't be.

 

In either case, the answer is interesting...if there is a significant pressure difference front to rear, it suggests a pressure restriction somewhere...maybe the bias knob itself? Could try re-testing at upstream locations (bias knob & MC) to see where the restriction is?

 

If the pressure is the same front to rear, then maybe it's just a matter of using either a softer compound up front and more aggressive in the rear, or maybe using a larger rear caliper, or smaller front caliper?

 

Of course, I could be way off-base here because I know very little about designing braking systems

Edited January 28, 2015 by toedrag

[subtlez28]

Wilwood's tech guy also said to do the pressure test to rule out mechanical issues. A pressure gage is in my Summit cart as we speak.

 

He said that with 100 pounds of pedal pressure, I should see around 1,000 psi up front and 7-900 psi rear. I have Wilwood 4 pots up front and stock Miata single pistons out back. Everything is new, so I don't know why I would have a mechanical issue. I also brought up the idea of the bias valve being the issue. He thinks that is very unlikely, I tend to agree as it is a very simple device.

 

The only bummer is I cannot test with the power assist right now. I am pulling the engine do to some work on the trans. Come to think of it, I guess I could use a vacuum pump...

 

I'm not seeing much input on the pedals themselves. I will likely purchase them. If for whatever reason, they do not work, I guess I will just have to build another car around them later!

[toedrag]

Wilwood's tech guy also said to do the pressure test to rule out mechanical issues. A pressure gage is in my Summit cart as we speak.

 

He said that with 100 pounds of pedal pressure, I should see around 1,000 psi up front and 7-900 psi rear. I have Wilwood 4 pots up front and stock Miata single pistons out back. Everything is new, so I don't know why I would have a mechanical issue. I also brought up the idea of the bias valve being the issue. He thinks that is very unlikely, I tend to agree as it is a very simple device.

 

The only bummer is I cannot test with the power assist right now. I am pulling the engine do to some work on the trans. Come to think of it, I guess I could use a vacuum pump...

 

I'm not seeing much input on the pedals themselves. I will likely purchase them. If for whatever reason, they do not work, I guess I will just have to build another car around them later!

 

Not sure if there is a rear big brake kit for Miata's, and if there is, is it easier/cheaper to go that route vs the new pedal setup you're considering? Just spit-balling...

[DaveStruve]

So I'll chime in here. I don't have any sort of power brake assist. But I have those pedals, with willwood masters, and a wilwood miata 4 wheel big brake kit.

 

With that said, trying to test your brakes is nearly impossible with a single gauge or at least impossible if your trying to do anything other than verify that they work. The problem comes from that while I can take a reading off the gauge, I can't tell how much pressure I'm putting through my foot. So even when standing on the brake pedal, the pressure varies enough to take a valid reading. So if your trying to balance it front to rear by placing the gauge at each corner you get reading all over the place.

[toedrag]

So I'll chime in here. I don't have any sort of power brake assist. But I have those pedals, with willwood masters, and a wilwood miata 4 wheel big brake kit.

 

With that said, trying to test your brakes is nearly impossible with a single gauge or at least impossible if your trying to do anything other than verify that they work. The problem comes from that while I can take a reading off the gauge, I can't tell how much pressure I'm putting through my foot. So even when standing on the brake pedal, the pressure varies enough to take a valid reading. So if your trying to balance it front to rear by placing the gauge at each corner you get reading all over the place.

 

I was thinking it's more about the delta between 4 corners, not so much the absolute value at a given pedal position. To get a consistent pedal position for testing purposes, a temporary stop behind the brake pedal could be used.

 

Or, I guess alternatively, maybe use more than one gauge and just clamp the pedal in position?

[subtlez28]

Not sure if there is a rear big brake kit for Miata's, and if there is, is it easier/cheaper to go that route vs the new pedal setup you're considering? Just spit-balling...

I guess the package with the front calipers I have they run stock Miata rears. Mainly because of the integral parking brake.

 

I'm not to worried about the expense. I want manual brakes anyway, and am not happy with my pedal set up. Kind of a hodge podge. The clutch pedal is at a bit of an angle per recommendation, and I am fairly unhappy with the throttle pedal set up. I'm hoping, especially with the pedals moved rearward, I can clean up that situation. If not, I will keep what I have and just swap the brake pedal.

 

I could just swap to the other Wilwood brake pedal (like Xcar has) but I think this combo set up might be more to my liking.

 

So I'll chime in here. I don't have any sort of power brake assist. But I have those pedals, with willwood masters, and a wilwood miata 4 wheel big brake kit.

 

With that said, trying to test your brakes is nearly impossible with a single gauge or at least impossible if your trying to do anything other than verify that they work. The problem comes from that while I can take a reading off the gauge, I can't tell how much pressure I'm putting through my foot. So even when standing on the brake pedal, the pressure varies enough to take a valid reading. So if your trying to balance it front to rear by placing the gauge at each corner you get reading all over the place.

Wilwood tech said to put a bathroom scale between your foot and pedal to get the 100 pounds. That leaves a little room for error, but should get you in the ball park.

 

So... Do you like the pedal set up? I assume it is well placed for heel-toeing.

[DaveStruve]

So my wilwood rear has the parking brake. This is the kit here. http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=5688&parentid=0&stocknumber=14-16650%2010IN

 

While the bathroom scale is a good idea. Not sure how that would work in practice, especially in the confines of the pedal box. But give it a go.

 

And yes the pedals are great, as long as you can make them fit I would do it. The trick is installing them. I built a sub frame/floor for them since they are floor mounted. I didn't think the steel floor would offer enough support.

Edited January 29, 2015 by DaveStruve

[DaveStruve]

This is how I did it.

 

I welded in 2 pieces of 1/2" square tubing. Then over top of that, cut a piece of sheet metal and welded that in.

 

Shot of the pedals, you can see how the floor in this section is almost even with the top of the 1" chassis tubes.

 

Also the other reason to do the subfloor...at least in my case was to get the master cylinders high enough to clear the 1" tube that run behind them.

 

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p74/xcritic/Lotus%207/IMG_1017_zps5997469a.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p74/xcritic/Lotus%207/IMG_1015_zps2aaa376d.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p74/xcritic/Lotus%207/IMG_1044_zps9dba7666.jpg

Edited January 29, 2015 by DaveStruve

[powderbrake]

Just a comment on your brake pressure switch. I had problems with the hydraulic switch on my Ultralite, replaced it once, then went to a mechanical switch on the brake pedal.

 

The pressure was too low to reliably turn on the brake lights under light braking.

[DaveStruve]

Just a comment on your brake pressure switch. I had problems with the hydraulic switch on my Ultralite, replaced it once, then went to a mechanical switch on the brake pedal.

 

The pressure was too low to reliably turn on the brake lights under light braking.

 

Same issue here. Light braking doesn't light them, but at the same time I don't necessarily want them to light every time I touch the brake. My bigger concern is the switch failing all together as these are prone to do. The pedals also makes it hard to use anything else. Open to suggestions, could never come up with something that would work.

[toedrag]

I picked up a hydraulic switch from Ron Francis wiring, model SW-32, which activates between 20-50 psi. I did a quick air pressure test on it when I received it, and it did short the contacts at 20 psi. I figure 20-50 psi should be adequate for light braking, and I'll find out how long it lasts....or maybe I'll just add "replace brake switch" to my annual maintenance list?

[xcarguy]

I've got the in-line low pressure hydaulic brake light switch on my car; since 07' with no issues.

[subtlez28]

So my wilwood rear has the parking brake. This is the kit here. http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=5688&parentid=0&stocknumber=14-16650%2010IN

 

While the bathroom scale is a good idea. Not sure how that would work in practice, especially in the confines of the pedal box. But give it a go.

 

And yes the pedals are great, as long as you can make them fit I would do it. The trick is installing them. I built a sub frame/floor for them since they are floor mounted. I didn't think the steel floor would offer enough support.

 

Oddly enough, shortly after typing the bathroom scale thing, I thought to myself, "self, the bathroom scale won't fit in that tiny pedal box". Ha Especially and not hang up on the clutch.

 

As far as the floor, the Storker has a pretty stout plate there to mount the pedals. I had to space up my current pedals to clear the square tube also.

 

I like the big rear brake idea (not so much the price). Do you have a shot of how the parking brake mounts? The current Miata stuff is really poorly placed, I don't think it will work anyway, and I need a parking brake for inspection. So that may kill two birds with one stone.

 

Thank you for the pics. You answered some questions I had about brake light switches and residual valves.

[DaveStruve]

This seems to be the only shot I've got of it. Basically I cut the brake cable mounting plate out of the miata. Then hammered it flat and welded it to the top of the lotus tunnel.

 

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p74/xcritic/Lotus%207/CB2FBE9A-3A2D-4630-A0E6-3B0B87CE7531_zpswruna27u.jpg

[subtlez28]

Thanks Dave. Would you be able to supply a shot of the calipers, on the car. I would like to see how the e-brake brackets on the caliper line up. I have limited clearance with the stock miata stuff.

[DaveStruve]

Let me know if this helps. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p74/xcritic/Lotus%207/IMG_0047_zpslbz1bi1t.jpg