Getting a used Caterham titled/registered in the US - how is it done?

[Paul D]

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum, but most certainly not new to Sevens. I've spent my working life on classic & sports cars over here in England, and I've worked on many original Lotus Sevens (S1, S2, S3... but not S4!) as well as literally dozens and dozens of Caterhams - probably well over a hundred.I've converted a handful of used Caterhams to LHD which, so far, have been sold in mainland Europe. I've perfected a technique for doing this without necessitating a chassis change, as conventional wisdom suggests, and I think you'd need to park one of my conversions next to a factory built LHD car and compare them, before you'd notice any significant differences. If you're interested, please take a look at my website (http://www.pauldolanclassiccars.com) where you can see more details, plus info on some of the Sevens that have passed my way over the last 30+ years. Anyway, I currently have another for sale, LHD, which I recently listed on eBay in Canada (as I understand Canada operates a 15 year rule, so anything older can be imported through a simplified process - I hope I've got that right!). However, in the two days it was listed before eBay decided they didn't like my wording and pulled it, I got some interest from guys there in the US, with a couple asking how they would register it there. The problem is, I don't know, and I've read so many different opinions on it that I'm just confused! As far as I can tell, it's done on a state-by-state basis - is that correct? Are there procedures and dos-and-don'ts that allow a Caterham to be registered there? It's clear from reading through the forum that quite a few of you are running just the sort of used Caterhams I'm talking about, so obviously some of you know how to do thisIf anyone can give a definitive answer, I'd really appreciate it - although, I have a feeling most of you are going to tell me there is no definitive answer and it varies from case to case. However, any info will be appreciated. And if you take a look at my site, please let me know what you think of it.Regards, Paul.

[Paul D]

Apologies for the lack of spacing/paragraphs in the post above - for some reason, they were removed when I posted, and now I can't seem to edit it either!

[mrmustang]

Paul,

 

Just so you know, a good majority of us who would import would do so because it is a UK RHD spec car. Converting to LHD may limit your overseas (US based) buyer pool.

[Paul D]

Really? That does surprise me I must say. I would have thought most of you over there would prefer a LHD car - but that is just what I would have thought - of course, I have no way of knowing that. But thanks for the input anyway.

[mrmustang]

Really? That does surprise me I must say. I would have thought most of you over there would prefer a LHD car - but that is just what I would have thought - of course, I have no way of knowing that. But thanks for the input anyway.

 

As for registering in the US, first you have to have paperwork documenting the car is more than 25 years old.

 

After that, it's a matter of getting the proper import paperwork filled out.

 

Each state has it's own way of titling and registering the car(s) for the street once the proper import paperwork is approved and the car is on US soil.

 

If the car is not 25 years old (regardless of how it is titled/registered in the UK), then the new owner risks the car being impounded and crushed....The US government is pretty knowledgeable these days of all the tricks of old, so most potential US buyers are hesitant to take a chance with their hard earned money.

 

Bill S.

 

PS: Back in the 90's when I was importing TR's/MGA's/MGB's, the RHD versions were always the first to sell for the uniqueness when in a crowd of similar automobiles

[Sean]

Short answer: The 1996 car you have for sale cannot be legally brought into the US for street use until it is 25 years old.

 

Also, importing is a matter of complying with United States law; titling and registering are done at the state level, which varies considerably from state to state. I believe Croc has already answered most (all?) of your questions above in other threads, which should be easy for you to find.

[Paul D]

OK guys, understood - thanks for the info. Please just clarify something for me though: if everything has to be over 25 years old, and Caterham have, until recently, not sold new cars in the US, then how is it that I see a lot of Caterhams on this very forum from the late 1990's/early 2000's? How did they get registered there? What am I missing here?

[Sean]

OK guys, understood - thanks for the info. Please just clarify something for me though: if everything has to be over 25 years old, and Caterham have, until recently, not sold new cars in the US, then how is it that I see a lot of Caterhams on this very forum from the late 1990's/early 2000's? How did they get registered there? What am I missing here?

 

Again, you are confusing registration with importation (easy to do!). I believe you meant to ask, "How did they get imported there".

 

The answer: CKD. A Caterham car cannot legally be imported into the USA for road use if it is less than 25 years old, but parts can. From the viewpoint of the relevant agency of the USA government (the NHTSA), the parts become a car forever more once an engine or gearbox are installed. So, a new CKD from Caterham can be legally imported for street use, but a new or used Caterham car cannot, until the 25 year point. This is why CSRs were available in the USA market as CKD whereas they were sold only as complete, running vehicles elsewhere.

 

There is a ton of misinformation on this issue, and far too many who propagate the misinformation. It is also subject to both change and interpretation by government officials, so I would urge you to independently verify any and all information you find on this issue with the appropriate government agencies.

 

Best of luck!

 

 

edit -- For the record, Caterham still do not sell new cars in the USA, only kits. There is very recent legislation that may change that some day, but not yet.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Sean

[Croc]

I believe Croc has already answered most (all?) of your questions above in other threads, which should be easy for you to find.

 

In case Paul goes looking for some sketchy reptile, I will save him some time and post a link to the relevant thread posts that are pertinent

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/showthread.php?10365-1999-Birkin-S3-(Last-5-of-build)/page2&highlight=import

 

 

And despite what Bill (MrMustang) said above, I bet there would be some market for LHD (converted from RHD) sevens if the spec/price were right. I am not sure it would be a big market compared with the UK but there would always be someone who just falls for a particular car.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Croc

[Sean]

In case Paul goes looking for some sketchy reptile...

 

Nah, I'll leave this one alone. Too easy. :seeya:

[Paul D]

Sean & Mike - many thanks for clarification, it's beginning to make sense now... well, at least, sense as much as anything ever does where governments are involved! So if I have this right in my head now - one of you guys could have bought my '96 1700 Super Sprint when it was new in '96, had it imported as a kit from the UK and built it up there in the US, and it would then be road legal. But 20 years later you can't buy the identical car (if it was built in the UK) and import it for road legal use? If that's the case, it seems somewhat barmy to me, though I suppose not surprising considering the government departments involved.

 

Thanks for the link to the info too Mike - I was going to go looking for it until I saw you have 3000 posts, at which point I lost the will to live!

 

Can anyone clarify the Canadian position on the same subject? I've read elsewhere that they operate a 15 year rule, but as in the US, could there be different rules in different areas? I'm sure I read that in some parts of Canada you actually cannot register/license a car if it's RHD, you have to buy a LHD one.

 

One other point I'm still confused about: I see many Caterhams there and the owner says something like (for example) "This is my '98 Caterham, but it's titled as a '67 Lotus." or words to that effect. What's going on there? Is that some sort of loophole people are exploiting, perhaps in certain states, which is allowing them to register a Caterham as something else?

[mrmustang]

One other point I'm still confused about: I see many Caterhams there and the owner says something like (for example) "This is my '98 Caterham, but it's titled as a '67 Lotus." or words to that effect. What's going on there? Is that some sort of loophole people are exploiting, perhaps in certain states, which is allowing them to register a Caterham as something else?

 

The cars are brought in as "pallet" vehicles, or in other words as a "kit car" where the owner/buyer, or an authorized importer builds the car up to a rolling chassis, minus the drivetrain. The drivetrain is sourced separately, then installed into the chassis by the builder/owner, or a third party company. The car then runs and drives and can be titled any number of ways depending on the state in which it is initially being titled in. Some states it gets titled as the year it was built (IE: 2015), with emissions exemptions in some cases. Other states (far and few in the US these days), it gets titled as what it replicates (IE: 1967 Lotus 7), while other states it gets titled as a "Composite Vehicle", with various emissions requirements or exemptions.

 

Bill S.

[Croc]

If that's the case, it seems somewhat barmy to me, though I suppose not surprising considering the government departments involved.

 

One other point I'm still confused about: I see many Caterhams there and the owner says something like (for example) "This is my '98 Caterham, but it's titled as a '67 Lotus." or words to that effect. What's going on there? Is that some sort of loophole people are exploiting, perhaps in certain states, which is allowing them to register a Caterham as something else?

 

Yes completely barmy. Now you know how stupid the governments can be....then again you are from the UK so you have had your fair share too.

 

I think Sean mentioned it above - importation are Federal rules. Registration to drive on the roads are state rules. So using my 2002 Caterham SV as an example, Caterham USA got a nice container shipped to them full of disassembled parts bits and bobs representing a Caterham kit, ready to build. Once the container arrived at the workshop in Denver, they sourced a 2L Zetec and a Ford T-9 gearbox independently of the delivery from Caterham. Then they put it all together. Once complete and working they took it down to the Colorado Department of Moter Vehickles (DMV) and paid their state sales tax, registration fees, were issued a State VIN number (since they did not like the Caterham supplied one) and in Colorado at least were registered as a 1967 Lotus 7 as Colorado at the time had rules that replicas were titled as the year/make/model of the car being replicated. Then it got issued a title (State document demonstrating proof of ownership - is it a V5 in the UK?) and registration (proof of permission to drive that car on the road) documents. And off into the sunset it drives until it found me much later in life.

[Paul D]

Thanks yet again Bill & Mike. Oh damn, if only Mike's name was Ted, we could have had Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure! Although, in this case, it's beginning to look like it may be more of a Bogus Journey!

 

Anyway, I guess the upshot of all this is becoming clear to me now: unless the car is over 25 years old, you're in very risky territory, and I guess that, although some may have taken a gamble on something younger and got away with it, generally speaking most people aren't going to risk it. Does that accurately sum up the general feeling over there? If so, then it makes life a little more difficult for everyone - you guys there who may want to import, and me here if I want to sell, the reason being that pre-1990 Caterhams are thin on the ground here. They're out there, but nowhere near as plentiful as mid-to-late '90s examples.

 

It brings to mind another question too: is the 25 year rule an exact one, by which I mean is it 25 years from the date the car was built and/or registered, or is it simply 25 years from the year in which the car was built'registered? The distinction I'm trying to emphasize may not be very clear, so for example: let's say I had a car that was built/registered in January 1991 - does that become eligible for import there in January 2016 (its 25th birthday, if you like), or is it only eligible after the whole of its 25th year has passed, meaning it wouldn't be allowed in until 2017? I know that's a fine distinction, but the answer could potentially throw a few extra vehicles into the mix.

 

Mike, you mentioned the UK V5 document. Yes, that's the important one here, and I think maybe also the source of some of my initial confusion. You see, the V5 is really the only document that matters here - it serves as your title, your proof of ownership (more or less) and it contains all the info pertinent to the car itself, specifically the manufacturer, model (not always present, esp on Caterhams or other special builds), engine and chassis details. But unlike how I now think things work there - the car's 'title' in the UK can never be changed: if it's registered (titled) here as a 'Ford Focus', then it will always be a Ford Focus for life. We can't have a car registered as one thing but titled as another, and we certainly can't build ourselves a Seven replica and have it titled as (for example) a '67 Lotus Seven.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Paul D

[mrmustang]

It brings to mind another question too: is the 25 year rule an exact one, by which I mean is it 25 years from the date the car was built and/or registered, or is it simply 25 years from the year in which the car was built'registered? The distinction I'm trying to emphasize may not be very clear, so for example: let's say I had a car that was built/registered in January 1991 - does that become eligible for import there in January 2016 (its 25th birthday, if you like), or is it only eligible after the whole of its 25th year has passed, meaning it wouldn't be allowed in until 2017?

 

25 years old, meaning whatever the original title reads vs the manufacturing date (IE: car built April 1989 (a RHD Miata in this case) but titled as a 1990 vehicle since they did not produced a 1989 version of the car. 1990 on the original MSO/MCO becomes the deciding factor, as it shows up in the US Federal system, and it is the Federal import laws that must be followed to the letter to avoid forfeiture and eventual scraping of something that does not conform to those Federal rules.

 

No to those cars built later (say 1995) but titled as a "1967 vintage" automobile, as those technical loopholes have long since been closed.

[Croc]

Bill's explanation is right. The one variation I will mention is that a build date stamped on the car as an identification date will generally always trump the MSO/MCO documentation. So the best authoritative documentation of build date will always be the chassis plate/stamping for the purposes of calculating the 25 year age. Of course if there is a conflict between the sources then be prepared for an import colonoscopy.

 

For calculating the 25 year, if the build date specifies a year then Jan 1 of the 25th anniversary qualifies as import date. If a month is specified on the chassis plate (e.g. like Australian cars) then you need to wait to the anniversary of that month.

[Paul D]

For calculating the 25 year, if the build date specifies a year then Jan 1 of the 25th anniversary qualifies as import date. If a month is specified on the chassis plate (e.g. like Australian cars) then you need to wait to the anniversary of that month.

 

OK, so usually on a UK V5 (title/registration), if a car is new when first registered and licensed in the UK, then a specific date will be given when the car is registered, let's say 15th of Feb 1991. So, that car would become eligible for the US on the 15th of Feb 2016, the 25th anniversary of it's first use - correct? It can't possibly have been built any later than that date, because it must be a complete car before it can be registered, although it could have been built sometime earlier than that. However, if a car has been previously used outside of the UK (and therefore outside the jurisdiction of our DVLA, the DMV there), then it's date of first registration will be recorded as the date of first use in the UK, let's say 20th of June 1998, but info from the original documentation from wherever it was previously used will be checked, and a note will be added on the V5 to say something like 'Previously used and/or registered - declared manufactured in 1991.' So this car, even though it may have been built early in '91, won't be eligible for US import until the 1st of Jan 2017, because only a year is given for the build - correct?

 

Caterhams from this period ('80s - early '90s) generally don't contain anything in the chassis number or VIN that allows you to date the car, so documentation is all there is to go on.

[Kitcat]

As a left handed person, I often suffer from directional confusion (to me my left side is "right"), but having confirmed what side is my left, I am pretty sure most of us prefer LHD cars. And having sold a USA Cat into Canada, I vaguely recall Canada uses date of mfg as start of 15 years, not date of registration.

[mrmustang]

I vaguely recall Canada uses date of mfg as start of 15 years, not date of registration.

 

Correct, date of actual manufacturer. In the case of Caterham and Birkin, traceable by VIN in correlation with known currently imported vehicles/kits

 

 

Bill S.

[Aerobod]

Hi Paul, here is the main resource for importing vehicles into Canada: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/safevehicles-importation-index-443.htm

 

The import regulations are determined at the federal government level, but each province can determine whether they will accept RHD vehicles or not. Inter-provincial transfers (i.e. register the vehicle in one province, then re-sell or transfer to another) also will require safety checks. Insurance requirements to be able to register a vehicle also vary from province to province. British Columbia is generally the most liberal in accepting kit and RHD cars from an insurance and registration perspective, Alberta is OK, Ontario seems to be more difficult and Quebec possibly the hardest.