'89 Caterham electrical gremlins - indicators and flasher problems

[truckin-on]

I'm a new owner of a UK-market '89 Caterham-assembled S3 Super Sprint. I am struggling to sort out issues with the indicators and flashers. Complicating my trouble-shooting is that apparently the wiring diagram and fuse box layout in the owners manual I have don't totally match the car.  

 

The symptoms and diagnosis:

 

1. Indicators L & R light, but do not flash (ignition on, indicator switch thrown L & R).
2. 4W Flashers - light, but do not flash.
3. Thinking must be the flasher unit - so I pull the 3-pin flasher and with it pulled, neither the indicators or 4W light.
4. Replace the flasher with a new one, and nothing at all - no lights
5. Put the old flasher back in, and back to original behavior, tried another new flasher, and still no indicator lights
6. Again replace the old flasher, and read that lots of issues with the flasher switch, so mess with that, can hear the flasher unit click, but no flash.
7. New issue - the fuel pump stopped running, and now the indicators do not light at all, but the 4W do. What the heck?
8. Checked all fuses - no issues with any of them
9. Pulled and re-set all relays (3 are 5 pin I believe, one a 3-pin)
10. No love.  Next step to put it up and see if the fuel pump has power I suppose. I must be missing something obvious...

 

Looking for info and suggestions. Specifically, what are the 3 relays for, is one of them for the fuel pump, and is the flasher relay used for both the 4-way and indicators? Also, the wiring diagram I have is marked Oct '90 and my car is an '89, anyone have an earlier wiring diagram or aware of what may have changed? Any thoughts or approaches welcome! Pics of fuse box and diagram attached.

 

 

Thanks!

 

[truckin-on]

Found an '88 wiring diagram in a assembly manual download that looks a bit closer to what my car has.  Studying that now :-)

[MV8]

There are flashers with the same socket config but meant for different markets and are different internally. I'd go back to the original flasher to continue your troubleshooting. I suspect the ground wires need cleaning at the connections. Check resistance to the ground terminal of the battery to the engine block and chassis. It may help to post some pics at a distance of 2-3 feet of the engine bay, fuel pump or tank if in-tank, cowl, etc.

 

I'll take a look at the schematics also.

[MV8]

I'd remove the ground at the wiper motor, wire brush and reinstall; remove the batt terminals and use a round female wire brush made for batt posts and removable cap for cleaning the batt terminals, locate the engine ground near the left engine mount, and clean the batt ground terminal at the bellhousing.

 

Even new batteries need to be cleaned before use. The grey is oxidation that insulates.

 

Also, the click you are hearing may be the hazard relay unless it is a repeating click.

 

Also, I would expect a Cat to have a euro spec ISO flasher pinout. North American spec is JSO and flips the ground with the input power terminals, but both are the same socket config and both meet fmvss and sae specs. You may want to recheck your fuses.

Edited August 28, 2022 by MV8

[truckin-on]

2 hours ago, MV8 said:

I'd remove the ground at the wiper motor, wire brush and reinstall; remove the batt terminals and use a round female wire brush made for batt posts and removable cap for cleaning the batt terminals, locate the engine ground near the left engine mount, and clean the batt ground terminal at the bellhousing.

 

Even new batteries need to be cleaned before use. The grey is oxidation that insulates.

 

Also, the click you are hearing may be the hazard relay unless it is a repeating click.

 

Also, I would expect a Cat to have a euro spec ISO flasher pinout. North American spec is JSO and flips the ground with the input power terminals, but both are the same socket config and both meet fmvss and sae specs. You may want to recheck your fuses.

Thanks! Had no idea there were ISO and JSO flasher configs - perhaps that caused me to blow a fuse, but all the ones in the fuse box at least looked just fie - I pulled and inspected each one - especially the one for the indicators. More investigation in a few days when I can get back on it.

 

I also suspect a bad ground somewhere...

 

Here are some engine pics.

[MV8]

Thanks for the pics. I like the dry box. Looks to be well taken care of.

Imho, I'd replace all the fuel and heater hoses, add clamps to the metal brake lines off the master cyl, use some bits of hose or clamps to stop the wiring rubbing on the metal on the driver's/curb side, and fit appropriate length bat cables with split loom or slip over fuel hose to ziptie or use cushion clamps. The header wrap is minimal but it may cause the pipes to eventually crack. Between the brake switch/union and the heater hose fitting, it looks like a black wire may have shorted at some point. I think I can see the wire braid through the jacket. Might check the production date on the tractor batt and replace if over 3 years old.

[MV8]

I compared your pics to the schematics. It looks like the PO had some grounding issues, adding two extra grounds when repair of the original grounds would have been better. I'd wire it like this and remove the add-on grounds. The grounds are blue so they can be seen easier with the orange bands as cushioned metal clamps. I suspect the engine mount to engine ground needs maintenance. Without it, all the cars electrical load goes through the throttle cable and ujoint needle bearings among other things.

[IamScotticus]

What is this?

[truckin-on]

Oh, you've found the hidden flux capacitor   A small one suffices for the 7.

 

Actually, it's a Loraffe Under Hood Ultrasonic Mouse Deterrent. The previous owner stored the car in a carport (open to critters) and installed this to keep the vermin Impossible to prove a negative, but I see no signs of mice. I've left it in primarily to have people ask what it is...

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LCKBGY8/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=693fc39859006f53e8630de4f48f7b37&content-id=amzn1.sym.53aae2ac-0129-49a5-9c09-6530a9e11786%3Aamzn1.sym.53aae2ac-0129-49a5-9c09-6530a9e11786&hsa_cr_id=6161534900101&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=6e540eb8-4aad-41d4-a57f-7045719c5809&pd_rd_w=zB4qE&pd_rd_wg=vjH2Z&qid=1661797307&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_td_asin_1_title&sr=1-2-a094db1c-5033-42c6-82a2-587d01f975e8&th=1

 

[NSXguy]

I just went through the entire harness on my 84 Cat- undoing 40yrs of wiring hacks and mods in the process. Got a pretty good understanding of it now. Feel free to PM me and we can connect offline via phone to troubleshoot live. 

[truckin-on]

17 hours ago, MV8 said:

I compared your pics to the schematics. It looks like the PO had some grounding issues, adding two extra grounds when repair of the original grounds would have been better. I'd wire it like this and remove the add-on grounds. The grounds are blue so they can be seen easier with the orange bands as cushioned metal clamps. I suspect the engine mount to engine ground needs maintenance. Without it, all the cars electrical load goes through the throttle cable and ujoint needle bearings among other things.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm away from the car this week but will investigate when I get back. Question - not sure I understand your comment of "add clamps to the metal brake lines off the master cyl"?  

 

On the grounding, there is a ground running from the bat to a lug on the left frame tube (near the header), and a second ground from that lug attaches to the bell housing bolt above the starter.  I'll check them all, and consider re-doing the whole mess.  The tractor battery terminals complicate things just a bit, but it seems to fire it up just fine for now.

[MV8]

I don't see any support for the brake lines. They are free to rattle and rub a hole where the first warning maybe it won't stop. One looks pinched that I would also replace and reroute. A fuel line looks like it rubs on the bellhousing. I'd probaby swap positions on the gascolator and coolant overflow tank to solve some routing problems. Overall it looks like somebody cared but some things are a bit off and could leave you scratching your head on the shoulder of the highway. I try as best I can to limit the break downs to actual part failures but you may very well be the luckiest guy in the world. I am not!

Maybe you can video chat with NSX to look things over. Next best thing to being there.

[MV8]

21 hours ago, truckin-on said:

Oh, you've found the hidden flux capacitor   A small one suffices for the 7.

 

Actually, it's a Loraffe Under Hood Ultrasonic Mouse Deterrent. The previous owner stored the car in a carport (open to critters) and installed this to keep the vermin Impossible to prove a negative, but I see no signs of mice. I've left it in primarily to have people ask what it is...

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LCKBGY8/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=693fc39859006f53e8630de4f48f7b37&content-id=amzn1.sym.53aae2ac-0129-49a5-9c09-6530a9e11786%3Aamzn1.sym.53aae2ac-0129-49a5-9c09-6530a9e11786&hsa_cr_id=6161534900101&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=6e540eb8-4aad-41d4-a57f-7045719c5809&pd_rd_w=zB4qE&pd_rd_wg=vjH2Z&qid=1661797307&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_td_asin_1_title&sr=1-2-a094db1c-5033-42c6-82a2-587d01f975e8&th=1

 

The strobe lights wouldn't work too well around here. Most of the big rats wear Ray Bans.

[Alex-Ks1]

Turn signals switches ,, I went through 5 or 6 , all garbage from China , after connection of small jumpers ,I knew better to wire it in with this crap. No flash either right or left , the lights would light but not flash on or off , the dash indicator  would light up too , no flash . So by testing it with a test light ,I found it would flash when the tester was put on terminal P of the flasher , I was told by the person that writes  all the soft ware for our electric vehicles says I induced a false ground to the switch unit , true , the flasher gets warm  this way but will flash .I added a wire from chasis ground to the turn signal switch it's self ,, no luck , still wouldn't flash 

So , all these garbage chi com turn signal switches are no good they have no ground connection  . Here's the good thing , E Bay had them for 26$ the auto part store here where I live sells them for 98$ . Same exact thing ,, junk , that one didn't work either . It's getting very hard to find reliable garbage 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Alex-Ks1

[jordway]

I'm guessing you've already addressed this, but just in case... Have you tried cleaning/replacing the hazard light rocker switch?  This very common issue solved a similar problem with my indicators.  Hazards lit and flashed normally, but indicators neither lit nor flashed.  Cleaning the corrosion on the contacts inside the rarely used hazard rocker switch might solve it.  Seems counterintuitive since the hazards worked normally, but it works in many cases.  If you open the rocker switch to clean it, I recommend doing so inside a plastic bag.  Tiny spring loaded pieces may go flying.  I never found all of mine and had to buy a new one.  But, it solved my indicator problem.   

[truckin-on]

33 minutes ago, jordway said:

I'm guessing you've already addressed this, but just in case... Have you tried cleaning/replacing the hazard light rocker switch?  This very common issue solved a similar problem with my indicators.  Hazards lit and flashed normally, but indicators neither lit nor flashed.  Cleaning the corrosion on the contacts inside the rarely used hazard rocker switch might solve it.  Seems counterintuitive since the hazards worked normally, but it works in many cases.  If you open the rocker switch to clean it, I recommend doing so inside a plastic bag.  Tiny spring loaded pieces may go flying.  I never found all of mine and had to buy a new one.  But, it solved my indicator problem.   

Thanks - I have not yet, but it's on my list. Where could I source a replacement, as my experience in trying to get all the switch bits back in the box has not historically been great :-)

 

Also found this post - referenced here for future - on how to diagnose the switch: https://www.caterhamlotus7.club/forum/techtalk/hazard-warning-light-toggle-switch

Edited September 1, 2022 by truckin-on
Add additional info

[jordway]

I ended up just ordering a switch from Caterham UK, and here's why...  I found a couple domestic switches online that looked like they would probably work.  I believe an older model of Mini's used a compatible switch.  But those were always higher priced than the one from Caterham UK.  It turned out that buying one domestically was very close to the same price as ordering from Caterham and paying the shipping.  That's what I did, so that I knew for sure it would fit.  Got it in about a week.  You can also check with Josh at Rocky Mountain Caterham.  He may now have some in stock.  But, either way, it will likely be the same cost.  That was ~$20 about a six months ago (invoice attached with part numbers and pricing).  Hope this helps.  

[jordway]

Oh yeah... one more thing... As I'm sure you read, simply flipping the rocker 10 or so times sometimes is sometimes enough to break up the corrosion and get the indicators flashing again.  But, I flipped mine God-only-knows how many times and it was never enough.  Had to be replaced.  But, the occasional hazard switch flipping is good cheep preventative maintenance in the future.   I really hope this help you.  This was the last thing I needed to sort before getting my safety inspection.  I can't tell you how excited I was to see turn signals work!   

[truckin-on]

Thanks Jordway!  I've tried flipping the switch, and it just flips the bird back to me :-)

 

Just placed an order for a new one from Caterham...

[jordway]

6 hours ago, truckin-on said:

Thanks Jordway!  I've tried flipping the switch, and it just flips the bird back to me :-)

 

Just placed an order for a new one from Caterham...

Good luck!  Thanks for the link on the switch diagnostics.  Not sure if you're a Monty Python fan, but after reading it, I couldn't help but be reminded of the Reading from the Book of Armaments.