Series 2 Pre-Cross Flow Distributor and Ignition Timing

[Henry VII]

Hello - New to the forum with a 62 Super Seven S2 new to me.  Can anyone point me to existing discussions or answer questions about replacement distributors or contactless points for a 62 Super Seven with the pre-crossflow Cosworth/Ford 1500.  It’s got the dual Weber 40s.  The current distributor is a vacuum type but no vacuum from the carbs.  Everything works, but it’s so hard to make it idle consistently.  And, anyone know where the timing mark is or where the timing should be set??  That might be a good start - I’ve been playing it by ear.   Thanks for any help. Cheers! 

[IamScotticus]

Welcome to the forum.

Hope to see pics of '62.

Left hand drive?

 

You're asking fir a lot of stuff that needs a tuners touch.

Idle issues could be many different things.  Its a goose chase to tell you to look here, then there, etc.  Just be reslistic that what you change now, may not be the fix.  

 

One of the best ways to get to know your 7 is to know the various cars it has parts from.  For your engine, buy a service manual for the car that used your engine.  Probably a Mk1 Cortina or Anglia,  not sure about it.

 

My limited expertise,  if you call it that, is if you hace DCOEs, you need a dizzy with electronic advance.   Caterham had  put the Aldon on the Xflows.  There are others like Petronics.  You will want one programmed for your ignition curve and cam.

 

But for idle, you have to check fuel pressure, carbs for float level and leaks, check spark plug wires.  Don't be so quick to blame the timing.

 

Pics!

and buy this book

https://www.amazon.com/Lotus-Seven-Preparation-Restoration-Maintenance/dp/185532153X

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by IamScotticus

[Henry VII]

Well a good book is a good start-perfect. Thanks for that link. 

 

 It’s a RHD with a dry-sump set-up and  very early 13” MiniLite wheels. It was an estate auction acquisition prior to my purchase.  Obviously babied but no history or build details and judging by the date code on the tires and the gooey seals in the brake and clutch masters, it sat for 15+ years .  Getting through it by inches, what it does have is a distributor cap and points that look like they didn’t survive a jolt from an electric chair, an old school S2 radiator with a dozen or so weepers, and a leaky front main seal.   What it doesn’t have is a fuel pressure regulator, which I suspect would help me on my tuning journey.   Baby steps….

[MV8]

Ditto. I would expect at a minimum a carb cleaning, balancing, adjustment, and vacuum leak checks at the carb mounting gaskets. Some as-is/rough pics all around would be nice. Use non-ethanol fuel if available. Check the cap for crusties on the terminals and rotor to clean or replace. Check plug wire resistance or if labelled carbon, replace with spiral core inductive. 

 

[Christopher smith]

Sounds like we have the same engine that was early Cortina based but now with 2x40DCOE2s, worked head, 10.2 to 1 , Newman cam from UK. Running on Sunoco or VP 110 octane to get the lead and no alcohol (way more octane than I really need).I sent my distributor to a specialist for a complete redo, elimination of the vacuum advance and an advance curve suited to track. I eliminated the stock type condenser and have an external one I adapted to make it all work and reliable.Happy to discuss and send all details/documentation. I am in Philadelphia area.

Edited September 15, 2022 by JohnCh
Removed PII

[IamScotticus]

Um, yes.

That engine is coming out for a refresh.  If you don't get the lower oil seals done, the oil will get to the clutch.  Good time to do the main bearings as well and check crank balance and flywheel runout.

Send me a PM and I will mail you an extra copy of a Dave Bean catalog.

I great source fir parts and technical is Burton Power in the UK.

A good source of info is Classic Ford magazine.  A lot of good archived info.

 

See if your car happens to be listed on simplesevens.org

Edited September 15, 2022 by IamScotticus

[JohnCh]

Hi @Christopher smith, I removed your phone number and email address from your post above.  Spammers screen scrape forums like this so publishing that information here is a recipe to increase robocalls and spam emails.  @Henry VII if you want to take up Christopher's offer to talk, please send him a PM and he can provide the email and phone number I deleted.

 

Thanks,

John

Trying to keep the community safe since 2010 

 

[Christopher smith]

Just a thought. If dry sump, I would guess it also has a higher lift/longer duration cam as well. So that might make for some unusual idle effects. i doubt a previous owner would go to the expense of dry sump just for street use so probably has high compression as well. I think competitive racers back in the 1970-1980 era were running  as high as 13 or more to 1 so good to watch the plugs for signs of detonation unless you use race fuel( you may not hear it with all the other noise going on).

[Henry VII]

Whoa - I came to the right place.  I am curious now that you mention race fuel.  I can get 110 from the pump at our local track, so that’s no brainer.  Definitely old carbon wires. Lot’s of great thoughts.   I’ll get some engine bay pics up shortly.  Thanks, gents.  

[IamScotticus]

Most likely had an axle upgrade.  maybe a Quaife LSD too.

Lucky you.

$20k car 

Edited September 15, 2022 by IamScotticus

[Henry VII]

How would I tell? I can see the axle has been reinforced.    But - and you’ll be surprised to learn this - it is also leaking.  So I’ll need the correct parts for that as well.  Do we ever ask why we do this to ourselves? 

[Christopher smith]

Henry

Looks great! I have a bare TR10 axle housing I will give you (? shipping cost?). It should be the same as yours was originally ( unless the previous owner swapped out for  an Escort or Ital rear assembly)  but with no reinforcements or Lotus weld on attachment points, so a bit of a task to adapt to your car but a decent welding shop could do it. My car has the original Austin A40 (Sprite/ Metropolitan type) since it is a Series 1, so the TR10, common in series 2, is of no use to me. By the way, if you tear down the engine, you should see if it has a "rope seal" or newer type rear seal before you order the gasket set and get hardened valve seats so you will not need lead in your fuel like I do. Bean Engineering can fix you up. You might also want to check the valve lift (easy to do) to get some idea on the cam spec. . To check compression you can cc the head and I have some great diagrams/template info if you want to further deshroud the valves. Do you intend to track the car or street? I am curious about the rear strut brace diameter. That front brace looks like a good idea.

[IamScotticus]

no, we don't ask.

We bring extra clutch cables and spark plugs with us.

[SENC]

I have the same engine in my 65 Seven.  Distributor Doctor in the UK is the best bet for a correct distributor rebuild (or to build up a new one with the right advance).  It would not have had the vacuum connected if originally a Cosworth 1500. 

 

There should be a notch in the crankshaft wheel and timing marks just behind it.  I think I uploaded a few documents that reference timing and may have pictures but will look and if not will submit for reference.  IIRC offhand, the gap between the 2 raised marks is 8TDC and the engine was originally tuned about 10 or 11TDC - regardless, get it to the marks as a starting point and adjust/advance as needed.  Also check and adjust the dwell on your current distributor.  With those 2 things done, I agree with the others some carb work is likely next - and you'll likely need to go back to timing to tweak as you get other things right.

 

I also agree that with a dry sump you likely have other upgrades/updates - and if that includes radical cams that comes at a cost to manifold vacuum and to steady idle.  I would suggest you do a compression test and also a leakdown test - those will give you insights into current condition that may help you avoid a few wild goose chases.

[SENC]

Check out the downloads available in this section;

https://usa7s.net/ips/files/category/5-lotus-seven/

 

The S2 service manual is there as well as an article on the Cosworth variants - both reference timing and are useful.

 

Also check out the technical section on engines - the 105e engine rebuild manual (for the Ford Consul but basis for our engines) is there and you find pictures and notes about the timing marks.

[Christopher smith]

SENC- Great advice. I used Advanceddistributors.com that show a 2-3 week turn around on their website. You need to specify some engine details and the use intended so they can set the advance curve.I have a Lucas 25D4 in my 1500.

[SENC]

Last - you mention a fuel pressure regulator - if it still has the mechanical pump it should not need a regulatory, but may if someone installed an electric pump with too much pressure.

[Henry VII]

5 hours ago, Christopher smith said:

SENC- Great advice. I used Advanceddistributors.com that show a 2-3 week turn around on their website. You need to specify some engine details and the use intended so they can set the advance curve.I have a Lucas 25D4 in my 1500.

 
More excellent info, thanks! 

[Henry VII]

5 hours ago, SENC said:

I have the same engine in my 65 Seven.  Distributor Doctor in the UK is the best bet for a correct distributor rebuild (or to build up a new one with the right advance).  It would not have had the vacuum connected if originally a Cosworth 1500. 

 

There should be a notch in the crankshaft wheel and timing marks just behind it.  I think I uploaded a few documents that reference timing and may have pictures but will look and if not will submit for reference.  IIRC offhand, the gap between the 2 raised marks is 8TDC and the engine was originally tuned about 10 or 11TDC - regardless, get it to the marks as a starting point and adjust/advance as needed.  Also check and adjust the dwell on your current distributor.  With those 2 things done, I agree with the others some carb work is likely next - and you'll likely need to go back to timing to tweak as you get other things right.

 

I also agree that with a dry sump you likely have other upgrades/updates - and if that includes radical cams that comes at a cost to manifold vacuum and to steady idle.  I would suggest you do a compression test and also a leakdown test - those will give you insights into current condition that may help you avoid a few wild goose chases.

Great, thanks - I’m working my way though all the old car things!  

[Henry VII]

5 hours ago, SENC said:

Last - you mention a fuel pressure regulator - if it still has the mechanical pump it should not need a regulatory, but may if someone installed an electric pump with too much pressure.

Yep - I know where it located (right behind my head!) and I hear it tick ticking away.   I was actually surprised, based on the build, that there is no regulator.