A US Club?

[No_6]

I believe powderbrake is correct about the use of '7.' In my experience in marketing and advertising, there are just some things you can not copyright. The numeral 7 falls into that category. Microsoft had this problem with "Office." If they were able to copyright Office, they could have sued the makers of the movie "Office Space" and the show, "The Office."

 

BTW, how many Canadians and Mexians on this board? Anyhow, I like the sound of either USA7 or NA7, with a preference towards NA7... sounds less jingoistic. Just .02 from a newbie.

 

 

[slngsht]

Alright, the pole is open for picking a name:

 

>http://www.usa7s.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=179

[anthonyseven]

Hi all,

 

...Affiliating with a club in England would do us no good from this standpoint.  IMHO, this reason alone is enough to reject the idea. Perhaps some kind of affilitation with Lotus Ltd would be possible.  I intend to talk to some folks about that at LOG this year (10 miles from home!).  Failing that, I'm not sure how to crack this nut.  What are those of you organizing the 7-7-7 meet next year doing about liability?  Being responsible for an event held on public roads would make me very nervous indeed without some kind of liability insurance......

 

 

 

 

 

Folks,

 

 

 

I totally agree with Bernie on this one, so I'll add my 2 cents to his.

 

 

 

I see no advantage in affiliating ourselves with a one-marque club on a different continent. They might be a wonderful bunch of guys, but we already have several wonderful groups here on our side of the pond.

 

 

 

The reason here is the people. Not good, or bad, but proximity!

 

 

 

Please, if I am wrong, someone set me right! But the case has simply not been made that there is greater value in affiliating with the UK group. Sure, there is a lot of technical knowledge available, but we already get that through the internet. The vast majority of us here in the USA will rarely have the opportunity to share a blat with those guys. Or meet for beer and pizza. If I can't ever hang with them, what's the point?

 

 

 

On the other hand, Lotus Ltd. has already established a lot of the things I'd like to see in a club. For example, local chapters, a national meet with factory recognition, liability insurance, and a regular newsletter!

 

 

 

I would suggest that you guys join Lotus Ltd, find a local chapter to hang with, or else start your own local chapter. Please, attend LOG this coming October. There is a larger Lotus community out there, and it would be sad if any one of us fails to tap into it. If you don't like Lotus Ltd for whatever reason then there are other Lotus clubs here in the USA that you could tap into. I just happen to be a member of the Indianapolis chapter of Lotus Ltd so that is what I am familiar with.

 

 

 

The reverse also works. If we can enrich the sevens community by starting a new club from scratch, then why can't we enrich the whole Lotus community even more by standing on their shoulders?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love the exhuberance I see in this group, but I worry that it might be a little about "Control?"

 

 

 

It would very sad, if that is the case, because I know that most of the old Lotus guys would really welcome us all. The car hobby does not need more Balkanization! I've had enough of the "rodders hatin the ricers" and the "corvette greybeards hatin the Porsche guys" and all that other nonsense. At least, all of Chapman's legacy should be united in the same community.

 

 

 

Believe me, there aren't many snobs left in the Lotus ranks now, they have mostly sold their Esprits to real enthusiasts and moved on to newer bling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll probably join whatever club you folks come up with, regardless of its affiliation or lack thereof; however, I know from personal experience that we would all be well served by reaching out to the existing Lotus community in our own backyard.

 

 

 

Bernie, we've got at least .04 between us now...

 

 

 

Tony

 

Indianapolis

 

'99 Birkin

 

 

[slngsht]

Tony, We did take Bernie's advice, as well as those from JohnCh and quite a number of other folks, and have decided to form this club as a standalone club rather than having any formal affilition with any other club. Having said that, we do plan on reaching out to brand specific clubs (here and in UK) by making sure we share event info, stories, etc... with them (and vice versa).

 

 

 

I'm not going to address the snob factor of any particular club - that's just the type of thing we will avoid here.

 

 

 

Hope this explains our direction a little bit.

 

 

 

 

[slngsht]

To add to my previous point, we did explore the benefits of affiliation - we would still have to have our own club insurance for events.

 

 

[anthonyseven]

Tony, We did take Bernie's advice, as well as those from JohnCh and quite a number of other folks, and have decided to form this club as a standalone club rather than having any formal affilition with any other club. Having said that, we do plan on reaching out to brand specific clubs (here and in UK) by making sure we share event info, stories, etc... with them (and vice versa).

 

 

 

I'm not going to address the snob factor of any particular club - that's just the type of thing we will avoid here.

 

 

 

Hope this explains our direction a little bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it does. Thank you.

 

 

 

I would like to learn more about what you hope this club will be. In other words, what is the purpose of the club? Specifically? From the discussion so far, the purpose would seem to be events like 7-7-7.

 

 

 

I don't think the answer to this question is obvious. I am presently a member of several different car clubs. Each of them has a different focus. In a sense, I had a different reason for joining each of them. Each one provided me with some connection to the hobby that the others did not. Why would I join this one?

 

 

 

For some folks, it would be reason enough to merely identify with other seven owners. I'll probably join for that reason alone, but I am betting that you've got more in mind.

 

 

 

What will make this club unique?

 

 

 

 

[anthonyseven]

To add to my previous point, we did explore the benefits of affiliation - we would still have to have our own club insurance for events.

 

 

 

 

Yes, as a separate club we would have to provide our own insurance. It was not my intent to imply otherwise.

 

 

 

Tony

[slngsht]

These are very good questions. I hope we can formulate all the answers in the next few weeks.

 

 

 

This whole club discussion, as well as the 7/7/7 discussion started when a handful of us (who had never met before) got together and went on a weekend cruise to Skyline drive in VA. While there, we talked about a 2nd event (I believe we first talked about that as I was getting a speeding ticket http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif ), and later on, Al came up with the 7/7/7 idea, which has taken off pretty well.

 

 

 

A club (and insurance) is a necessity for organizing an event like 7/7/7.

 

 

 

I can only speak about what I hope this club will become. My hope is that it'll spur more get-togethers, greater enthusiasm for our cars (if that's possible), a place (speaking of the forum) to share car stories, technical know-how, etc..., and hopefully a great way to help new owners feel immediately at home. Having a national club with regional coordinator will enable usage of the insurance coverage at the local level.

 

 

 

I'm one of those corvette graybeards you mentioned http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif, and the benefits I got out of the online forums added SO MUCH to the owning experience. Actually, having a strong online community really helped my decision to buy the vette. (By the way, I totally see the snobish stuff you talk about - even among generations of the same car).

 

 

 

As for what makes it unique - there is nothing here that someone else couldn't repeat I guess. We plan to be TOTALLY open to all LSiS cars. I'm committed to making our online community the best there is. Other than that, it's up to everyone contributing here to decide what we're about. That's the purpose of this thread.

 

 

 

 

[Al N.]

In terms of affiliations with any existing clubs, here's my POV. And again, it's just one guy's view.

 

 

 

I am personally a member of the UK/International Lotus 7 Club. And I will keep paying that annual fee even in light of the terrible exchange rates until my wife makes me stop. Mostly because I like the magazine, Low Flying. I rarely use blat chat, although it did help me sort out the speedo dip switches. Also, if I ever visit the UK, I want to rendez with some folks over there and perhaps visit the factory...and I think being, quite literally, a "card carrying member" would aid my cause.

 

 

 

So this whole thing started out because I was looking at their chapters and wondered why we didn't have a US one. However, there are a few issues with that...for starters, Low Flying is basically just for Loti and Caterhams. Rare is the inclusion of a Westfield, Birkin, or Locost in their coverage. Additionally, part of the dues (which I'm fine with paying, mind you) goes toward insurance for events, both large and small. And that insurance does not travel to the US.

 

 

 

Additionally, there are a handful of purists over there who might publicly (and no doubt privately) frown about the dilution of the bloodline with us marque-inclusive colonials. For anyone who thinks I am fanning the flames of "balkanization", I recommend you lurk on the lotus list of se7ens.net and see what some folks have had to say about our gathering at Tail of the Dragon. If anything, I think I have an extremely open POV. After all, I am a member of L7C UK, as well the US Lotus Ltd. Club. And I'll be a member of whatever transpires of the USA7s club.

 

 

 

More on Lotus Ltd. in the next post.

[Al N.]

Regarding Lotus Ltd. Again, I am a member. And plan to be for a long time. But I joined because it was a requirement for joining the LEO posse (Lotus Enthusiasts Org, my local NY/NJ club).

 

 

 

And again, I'm fine with paying the dues there. Remarque is an okay pub...not as nice as Low Flying in my book, but at least it has ads from US suppliers! And I like the people I've met through it so far. But...really, I'm MUCH less interested in Elans and Esprits than I am in Ultralites and Stalkers, etc. And unless Tony throws another LOG in the NY area, I'll probably not make it to their big annual gathering.

 

 

 

So, to me, the point of the new USA7s club is about focus. The focus is on the various and sundry "four wheeled motorbikes" inspired by that first 7 back in 1957. On adding lightness. On building your own (which, need I remind people, was a key thing to Colin Chapman back in the day).

 

 

 

Instead of representing a small portion of a group meet like LOG, cars like yours will represent 99% of the field. Perhaps down the road, we'll have a register and directory, where travelers coming North in their Ultralites can get travel tips and vehicle support from a Birkin owner on their route. And so on and so on. Kumbaya.

 

 

 

[THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS NOT 100% CORRECT: SEE MAZDA'S POST BELOW REGARDING DUES]

 

 

 

Finally, and really, I do have a day job that I need to get back to, I think we're trying to make this a club with NO DUES (at least initially, and really for as long as we can), and support the various events that could happen down the road through event-specific fees. We'd have a newsletter that's online only to start (zero printing costs). And this no-dues point is what makes it all a no-brainer really. If it doesn't cost you anything, and you get something out of it...isn't that good? People have commented on the logic of paying dues to a UK club whose insurance doesn't cover us and whose scope is much narrower than the great American melting pot we have over here. They've got a point.

 

 

 

[END OF PARAGRAPH]

 

 

 

Oh wait, one more thing. Really. I think our little niche hobby and gathering next July are going to have a lot more eyeballs on them in the months leading up to 7-7-7. The Locost write up in Car and Driver was great and I think that momentum will continue. So it is important that we do things right and talk things out among ourselves.

 

 

 

[sound of Al getting down from soapbox]Al Navarro2006-08-24 08:14:41

[slngsht]

Al, believe it or not, we have to have dues to be a nonprofit club. Per IRS

 

Support by Membership Dues Required: In general, a club should be supported solely by membership fees, dues, and assessments. A section 501©(7) organization may receive up to 35 percent of its gross receipts, including investment income, from sources outside of its membership without losing its tax-exempt status. No more than 15 percent of this amount may be derived from the use of the club's facilities or services by the general public or from other activities not furthering social or recreational purposes for members. If an organization has non-member income that exceeds these limits, all the facts and circumstances will be considered in determining whether the club continues to qualify for exempt status.

 

 

 

The dues will be minimal, or could be rolled into the 7/7/7 fees for those attending (there is another issue that I have to investigate with the insurance carrier regarding any restrictions on % of non-members attending a club event).

 

 

 

At any rate, the idea is to keep club overhead (in terms of funds, meeting requirements, etc...) to an absolute minimum (eliminate where possible).

 

 

[powderbrake]

I am ok with dues, and we must take into account that the attorneys who set this up must be paid.

 

like slingshot, I am a Corvette Forum greybeard, and I know how invaluable a forum with 1,300,000 threads and 18,000,000 posts can be. In the meantime, USA7s is on it's way to becoming THE website for 7's

 

I am a Lotus Ltd. member, and see no conflict or reason to abandon them, perhaps we will get some of them to join this group.

 

I believe the electronic newsletter is a better choice for this club, to keep costs down, and whatever the name chosen for the club....... I like it.

[stevet]

Having been a seven owner both in the UK and now here, I can confirm

Al's earlier comments; The UK Lotus/Caterham community often looks down

on other seven inspired marques as 'not the real thing' The arguement

goes along the lines of 'Lotus was the original seven, the Caterham is

a continuation of the original, and everything else is a copy of a

seven.' Some  folks - a minority I suspect - get quite vocal on

the subject, others keep their heads down and just enjoy thier cars.

Since moving to the 'States I have enjoyed the fact that this is not

really an issue, and that the focus is on the cars, the drivers, the

adventures etc., and not on provenence. Let's keep it that way.

 

 

 

Steve.

 

 

 

PS: not like me to dissagree with Al, but I'm not sure the 'build it

yourself' thing was the key motivation for Chapman. The Seven was

originally sold as a kit to avoid 'purchase tax' which was applied to

sports and luxury cars back then (and was 50% on top of the retail

price). As always with Chapman, he came up with a way to solve a

problem that no one had dared try, and upset the governing body in

doing so. I'm no historian, but that's what I was told.

 

 

 

[Al N.]

Steve, I think you are quite correct regarding the reason for CKD kits being offered. That said, Chapman seems to have had quite the "DIY" bug himself...from his days of turning an Austin into something he fancied rather more.

[slngsht]

Alright, moving past the name, we need text for definition of a LSiS, Purpose of the club, Membership, etc... I'm throwing these as I write them. Please discuss.

 

 

 

Definitions

 

A LSiS is defined as ???? My definition: mid-front engined (engine in front, but fully behind the front wheel center line), rear wheel drive, v8, 2 seater, cycle type or winged front fenders, front and rear wheels fully outside the main body. (OK, V8 = http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrinjester.gif ).

 

 

 

Purpose

 

The purpose of [name] is to enhance LSiS ownership experience, promote camaraderie through regional and national activities and events, and encourage favorable interest in LSiS and the club.

 

 

 

Membership

 

Membership in this club shall be limited to any person who meets all the requirements specified below:

 

•     Has paid current membership fees to the club treasurer

 

•     Has completed the club membership application form

 

 

 

AND, falls into one of the following categories:

 

 

 

•     Charter Members. still have to word this one… There are between 6-9 charter members who committed to split the upfront costs of club formation.

 

•     Active Members. Active membership shall be restricted to current or past owners, lessees, or co-owners of LSiS, who are 18 years of age or older.

 

•     Family Member. A person, 18 years of age or older, joining in conjunction with an active or associate member. A family member must reside in the same house as the active member.

 

•     Associate Members. A person, 18 years or older who has never owned a LSiS but has an interest in ownership. Associate members enjoy all the benefits of the club except they cannot vote, hold elective office or designate a family member.

 

•     Honorary Member. Any person who, on the affirmative vote of the Board of Directors, is deemed to merit recognition for outstanding interest in or service to the club. Such membership shall be limited to one year but may be renewed upon the affirmative vote of the Board of Directors. Annual dues are waived for that year.

 

 

 

Expulsion of any member will require 2/3rds vote by the general membership of the club. The unexpired portion of the expelled member’s dues shall be refunded, and the member’s name shall be deleted from the membership rolls by the treasurer.

 

 

 

slngsht2006-08-24 18:24:53

[locostv8]

 

Might I give a couple of thoughts.  First I totaly agree to the

LSiS theme with the only possible exception being show classes in all

other cases a member is a member.  Corvette grey beards have

nothing on the Cobra faithful, look at

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/index.php sometime (original vs real vs

clone vs replica vs kit vs scratch build (makes your head hurt)).

 

 

 

...Definitions

 

A LSiS is defined as ???? My definition: mid-front engined (engine

in front, but fully behind the front wheel center line), rear wheel

drive, v8, 2 seater, cycle type or winged front fenders, front and rear

wheels fully outside the main body. (OK, V8 = http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrinjester.gif ).

 

 

 

http://www.msnusers.com/_Secure/0VAAAABkZ8R3DGG4fZt8LkSUf83I2fBcaoQGQwT3DxzHOaNLPS2ulkq0ody*EmtI1Mx8EpPwPVarCM3g%215v4MGd3e07N0lYkJk2CushyII8XooRUnTZ2PyK2MJXI7KwoW/RS06%20tuners%20GP.jpgdc=4675582586459856627" height="480" width="640

 

 

 

Then

 

 

 

The DAX

Rush - Car engine format(engine option 4cyl - V8s), is available in De Dion

(main Price List), IRS & 4 x 4 (Quadra)(Price list supplement). All use

Sierra 'running gear', the 4 x4 specifically uses Sierra Cosworth 4 x 4

'running gear'

 

 

 

Might I suggest simply "Description - A Front-Mid engined car that is,

or is inspired by, Colin Chapmans Lotus 7 which itself was post WWII

British hill climb special."  There could be verbage somewhere

that if a car is in question the situation would be resolved on this

website by a pole of the members.  If there is an objection to a

paticular car by a member it is submitted to the board.  If

the board agrees  that there is a valid question then the member

posts a description and pictures of the car and the membership votes

over a 30 day period, a simple majority wins.

 

 

 

... Associate Members. A person, 18 years or

older who has never owned a LSiS but has an interest in ownership.

Associate members enjoy all the benefits of the club except they cannot

vote, hold elective office or designate a family member...

 

 

 

A dues paying enthusiast member should be a dues paying member should be a

member in all respects, 1 dues = 1 vote.

 

 

State the names of the Charter members and that they are the board

during the

formative time period (12 mo?).  To ensure that a member is

serious there

could/should be a statement that to be eligible to be elected to the

board,

past the formative period, they MUST have been a dues paying member for

at

least 1 dues period immediately prior to the election.  The

members will

be smart enough not to vote in a poser.  One of my pet theories is

that there should be a box that says either none of the above or a

negative vote for that person and a majoraty vote means just that for

that election.

 

 

 

locostv82006-08-25 00:08:20

[slngsht]

Thanks for the input. I like your definition of LSiS better.

 

 

 

I'll wait for feedback on the Associate Member comment - I don't have a problem with dropping the Associate Member class, other than this: Without this class specifically written into the bylaws, any person can join. One of the IRS requirement is "limited membership required".

 

 

 

Now, reading the definition of "limited membership required" section, I think it just means that the club is not completely public:

 

 

Limited Membership Required: Another earmark of a social club is limited membership. A club that issues corporate memberships is dealing with the general public (the corporation's employees). Evidence that a club's facilities will be open to the general public (persons other than members or their dependents or guests) may cause denial of exemption. This does not mean, however, that any dealing with outsiders will automatically deprive a club of exemption.

 

 

 

 

 

[xflow7]

I like locostV8's LSiS definition as well.

 

I read the Limited Membership Required statement to mean only that in order to benefit from the club, one must be a paying member; not that there needs to be any particular requirement that must be satisfied in order to become a member.

 

But I may be wrong about that.

 

Dave

[locostv8]

 

...Now, reading the definition of "limited membership

required" section, I think it just means that the club is not

completely public:

 

 

 

 

I would think a statemeent "restricted to Owners, past owners and

future owners" would be sufficent to pass the "limited membership

required" requirement.

 

 

 

The membership could be stated to include all interested members of the

immediate houshold who are 18 or older, but in elections 1 dues = 1

vote.

 

 

 

I have held for a long time that "None of the above" should be a valid

political statement.  Think how long it would take in our national

political situation how long it would take to get the  next pres

elected.

 

locostv82006-08-25 07:05:57

[slngsht]

K. Anyone have a problem with membership being limited to "past and current owners", and immediate household?