TEM Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 I now have the engine running but it over heats very quickly. The water pump easily turns by hand (without fan belt) and is rotating when the engine is running (with fan belt). There doesn't appear to be any signs of flow in the swirl pot. I pulled the radiator and had it rodded, flowed, and pressure tested, all was good. Even when I eliminate the radiator and just connect the pump output directly to the swirl pot inlet, I don't see much flow. The water temp gauge shows elevated temperatures and the block where the temp probe enters is correspondingly hot but the water in the swirl pot is lukewarm. I stuck a low quality borescope in the pump discharge and the pump vanes appear to be intact but I can't really tell condition from the poor quality video. Do these pumps need to be primed? Any other ideas before I pull the pump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 Is there much differential temp when feeling the upper and lower radiator hoses? What else was done besides radiator work to prepare the cooling system after sitting 30 years (dry)? The radiator and head gasket act as filters to catch contaminants and will clog, restricting flow. If nothing else was done, I would expect to replace the head gasket, the coolant pump (due to bearing seals), the freeze plugs (for cleaning out the crevices with a screwdriver), and the hoses (look for cracks inside the ends when squeezed; hoses should be soft), and back flush the radiator off the car (better than not trying through it may be fine). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 Are the pump vanes turning? 30 years sitting it could have seized and you snapped its drive shaft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SENC Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 (edited) 10 hours ago, TEM said: Even when I eliminate the radiator and just connect the pump output directly to the swirl pot inlet, I don't see much flow. I'm not following you on this statement. The pump outputs into the engine cooling cavities and then on up to the swirl pot. Are you giving it any revs, or is this all at idle speed? The pump is notorious for not moving much volume below 2k rpm - so if you're just idling I wouldn't expect to see much swirlpot activity. Otherwise, as MV8 and Croc have pointed out, it does seem like it would be something clogged in the engine cavities restricting flow or an inoperable/reduced efficiency pump. You don't have a heater box on your Seven, do you? That's another place to get clogged up. Edited May 31 by SENC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbcollier Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 What engine do you have? Most likely a Ford pre-crossflow but it could be an Austin A series, or anything else someone stuck in over the years. Does it have a thermostat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEM Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 I have not replaced the head gasket or removed the water pump yet. The swirl pot was removed and cleaned and the hoses are all new. Radiator has been removed and professionally cleaned, flowed, and tested but is not back on the car yet. The water cavity where the temperature probe sits has a light coating of rust but otherwise clean and no buildup of corrosion can be seen here or in the water pump inlet. With the radiator removed, I connected a hose from the water pump to the swirl pot therefore there is no upper and lower hose at the moment. This hose did not get hot when running the engine. I did see the vanes turning when spinning the pump by hand. Sorry for the confusion. Hose was connected to the outlet of the swirl pot and the inlet of the water pump. I did give it revs but the water just seems to vibrate rather than flow. I don't have a heater box. I also don't have a thermostat. Would this force all water to flow internally? I'm not sure if my swirl pot design will allow the use of a thermostat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Westfield Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 (edited) I've had a water pump impeller get loose from the shaft and not turn. More likely to happen with a plastic impeller, but not unheard of with cast ones. As noted above, the pipe on the pump is the intake, coming from bottom of radiator. Depending on which engine, you might be able to put a long screwdriver or something into the pump inlet to lock the impeller, then try to turn the pulley to see if they're still connected edit--- can you connect a garden hose to the pump? see if you blow out a bunch of crud don't put that much pressure thru the rad Edited May 31 by 7Westfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEM Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 Engine is a Ford Kent 1340cc. The block is a 109E but the head may be from a 116E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEM Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 My pump is of the earlier design (round pulley flange). When I used the scope to inspect the pump, it was difficult to get the camera in far enough to see the vanes, they seem to be around a corner. So I'm not sure a screwdriver will reach but will give it a try. I'm thinking I need to pull the pump to see what I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEM Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 If these pumps don't move much/any water at idle, then how do the cars not overheat in traffic? Is there a better aftermarket water pump out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Westfield Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 remove the lower hose, and fill the engine thru the upper hose if it doesn't flow right thru, you have a clogged block the pumps are driven faster than engine speed to account for traffic, etc designed so that the fan/rad is adequate in fact, on a formula ford, we seriously UNDERDRIVE the pump to save power FF's have a heating problem at idle, but a street engine shouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Westfield Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 what is the diameter of your pump shaft? 1/2" or 5/8" older engines like yours were 1/2, and pumps are pretty hard to find I had a 1/2" on my 1600 when I got it pumps from rockauto ( '71 pinto 1600) are 5/8, but I was able to ream the center hole on my pulley and use it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Westfield Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 19 minutes ago, TEM said: So I'm not sure a screwdriver will reach but will give it a try. try a chunk of tubing, like fuel hose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 You said it "Overheats very quickly". Under what conditions (closed garage idling a 1/2 hour, driving, etc)? Is it really overheating? Test the gauge and sender. Does the cooling fan come on? If it does, does the temp gauge jump higher at the same time? The replacement pumps are for higher output and displacement so I don't see a need for a more efficient pump with standard ratio pulleys. I don't think you've ever posted a photo of the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEM Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 Pump is off and looks good. Shaft not broken. All vanes are clean, no rust, and no damage. Water gallery is also very clean and no rust. Either I have a serious blockage somewhere or I just didn't give it enough rpm's. I'll put it all back together and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SENC Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 (edited) 22 hours ago, TEM said: If these pumps don't move much/any water at idle, then how do the cars not overheat in traffic? Is there a better aftermarket water pump out there? Some have installed an electric water pump, others have reported using a smaller pulley to increase pump rpms. This is a topic that has been discussed a fair amount on lotuselan.net and seems common - if you haven't already you might dig around over there. Personally, I have a bigger problem in my Elan than in my Seven - my Elan does NOT like being stuck in traffic and heats quickly - but this is more about airflow as it cools quickly again when on the move. An electric fan and periodic blips to keep coolant flowing generally work to keep it from overheating unless ambient air temp is in/above the 90s. When it is really hot out I just need to get out of traffic. My Seven seems to have fewer issues - but if I'm at a light for any period of time on a hot day a few blips on the throttle yield a noticeable drop on the temp gauge. A few other thoughts/observations, in addition to what others have contributed... 1 - you say it is overheating, but what does that mean? Are you observing a particular temperature on a gauge, IR gun, temp strip, etc., or are you getting coolant overflow? 2 - there are, obviously, 2 main drivers of cooling efficiency - coolant flow and air flow. As it seems you're only stationary, what are you doing to ensure cool air is actually flowing through the radiator? Does increasing/decreasing that airflow have any material impact on the heat measurements you're getting? 3 - are there any signs of even miniscule oil contamination in the coolant, that might suggest leakage at the head gasket. Is coolant blowing out anywhere? If I can get a few minutes to run over to the shop this morning I'll try to grab you a video of my swirlpot when my Seven is idling and when I blips the throttle - that may give you a single point of comparison to what you're seeing - but my recollection is not of gushing flow. Edited June 1 by SENC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEM Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 Shaft is 1/2" Overheats quickly = 10 min at idle outside. Determined by Temp gauge on dash. Reading is good when cold and when hot the water gallery where the probe it is similarity hot. I have hot pulled the probe to test for accuracy but it was hot. Hose and swirl pot I could touch, probe body I could not. Cooling fan a switch only so I always left it on. Temp gauge did not jump, steady rise to 200C where I shut it off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEM Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 Thanks SENC, a baseline video would be very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEM Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 SENC, I have a similar issue with my Elan S4. I don't see a lot of traffic where I am but when I do, A quick increase in rpm usually drops the temp. Everything on that car is stock too so no high efficiency fan, no electric water pump, etc. This seven seems to run much hotter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Westfield Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 have you removed the thermostat / water outlet housing? not likely, but possible someone put some sort of restrictor/stat in there, and it's gone wonky where is your temp bulb mounted? under the water outlet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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