Super Seven S2 Clutch Issues

[TEM]

Taking all the gaps and ratios into consideration, I get a minimum of 0.36" of throw is required at the Slave cylinder.

 

Given that the hydraulic system is capable of more than twice this throw, has anyone considered adding a clutch pedal stop to reduce the throw?  This is pretty typical on more modem cars.

[TEM]

I pulled the release arm out with pictures below.  Does the pivot hole look OK?  I don't see any wear but the hole is oblong.

 

Also, the bearing assembly is rather weak.  When I turned the arm over to take a picture of the back side, all the components just fell apart (bearing, clips, half moon spacer).  the clips don't seem to hold it all together very well.  Is this normal?  I have a new bearing and clips coming just in case.

 

[MV8]

The trans bearing retainer sleeve keeps it together. The release bearing collar must slide inboard and outboard on the end of the fork as the fork pivots.

Ideally, the fork hole should have a close fit to the ball stud but it isn't critical.

[jbcollier]

Please fit a complete clutch assembly, not just the disc.  You have issues.  Just fitting a disc may not solve them.  A complete, matched, clutch assembly is the best way forward.

[TEM]

Looks like clutches and transmission mounts are more difficult to find.  Where you your guys buying these parts?

[SENC]

Arm looks fine to me - here is the arm from mine for comparison.

 

 

I assume this is the same as your gb mount?  Check with DBE to see if they have one.  I seem to recall getting mine from an Anglia parts vendor, ir maybe even the 105e anglia club.

 

Edited June 28 by SENC

[MV8]

You can get parts from Burton Power, ebay here and in the uk if they will ship here, cortina mk2 and escort restoration sites and clubs, pegasus for the parts that are the same as FF1600, and rock auto when they have the right parts available for a 1971 pinto 1.6l with a 7/8x20T clutch.

 

It looks like you have standard cortina clutch components versus what was available from Lotus.

[TEM]

Thanks guys.  Having cross reference cars is a big help.

 

Has anyone replaced a Borg & Beck diaphragm type PP with a finger type?  Burton has a kit that looks like it will work but the finger type PP's don't look as tall as the B&B.  Are any modifications, spacers, etc. required?

[MV8]

I don't see a kit for this. The clutch in a kit for a cross flow will most likely be for a 1"x23T input shaft instead of 7/8"x20T.

In general, diaphragm PPs are thinner than B&B (smaller opening, three wide levers with adjustment screws) which are thinner than "Long" (larger opening/less shrouded, usually three thin levers, adjust with shims).

A diaphragm pp with a platen/thrust ring should accept your existing B&B pp equipped "flat face" release bearing and eliminate the need for a 1/2" spacer.

Appears to be the correct PP to swap (no thrust pad/platen): https://www.burtonpower.com/clutch-cover-7-5-flat-fingers-190mm-fp260c.html

This looks to be the correct disc for a pre-cross flow 7/8x20T when using a 7-1/2" flywheel and pp (B&B or diaphragm): https://www.burtonpower.com/std-clutch-plate-x-flow-c752af.html

The spacer if no thrust pad/platen: https://www.burtonpower.com/adaptor-spacer-clutch-carrier-apc1.html

Round face bearing for diaphragm pp without thrust pad: https://www.burtonpower.com/clutch-release-brg-mk2-ford-cortina-lotus-mp315-hd3259.html

 

Here is a pic of a couple different flange height carriers. All these methods try to maintain the intended fork angle on the ball stud. Replacement ball studs are threaded where the originals slip in (bell must be tapped) and offer adjustment of the stud height as another method.  

 

 

Edited June 29 by MV8

[SENC]

As I recall I searched for a while for a NOS clutch disk and PP, and eventually found both (separately).  Keep your eyes open for AP (owned B&B rights in UK) and parts seemed to have been marketed/sold as AP, B&B, and AP B&B.  #50803 is the part number on mine, there should be cross references out there. I'm assuming yours is also 7.5"?  Anglia/Mk 1 Cortina should be the same.

 

You might also check with Moss Motors - I think they sell a range from AP Raicam, who now have the rights to mfr AP B&B UK parts.  As I recall some of the MGs (Midgets or Sprites maybe?) also used a UK Ford gearbox and so may have used the same clutch and pp.

 

[toldfield]

I think calling Ken at Dave Bean has been suggested.  If that fails perhaps Ivey Engines.  They sell clutches and flywheels for Formula Ford and similar.  There is an outfit in Long Beach, CA, that deals in Cortina and Escort parts.  I can't find it now but will continue to look.

[TEM]

I did contact Ken at DBE but no joy on the PP, clutch disc, and trans mount.

 

I did find some FF1600 clutch parts but they are intended for racing so most (all?) are heavy duty with no-spring clutch discs.  And also, they are extremely expensive, $1300 - $2500 for a set.

 

I'll take a look for AP parts.

 

The kit I found from Burton is:

https://www.burtonpower.com/luk-std-clutch-kit-ford-x-flow-ohv-kent-escort-mk2-619001506.html

But this link is shy on details so I gave them a call.  They seem to have a solution with a bearing adapter to account for the difference in height between the B&B and finger type PP but I need to send pictures of my hydraulic setup.  I'm not sure why.  They said their solution will work with some hydraulic setups and not with others.  The gentlemen did not offer details when asked.  I will share Burtons response once I get it next week.

[TEM]

Pics of the Trans cover removed.  I don't see signs of any wear.  Let me know if you see something that I didn't.

 

 

[wdb]

If you really want to look for wear on gearbox parts I'm sorry to tell you that you'll need to do more disassembly. A lot more. Taking the shift rods out will give you a look at the shift forks, but the synchros will require a total teardown. If it shifted okay before your clutch issues arose I would let it go for now and stick with the broken stuff.

[SENC]

Manually turn the drive shaft and use the selectors to get 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears. Smooth?  Any obvious hitches or problems?

 

Spin the drive shaft slowly and look at all the brass and steel dogs/teeth any obvious damage?  Are the baulk rings butt up against the gear dogs, or is there a gap (I haven't found my note on the expected gap, but if no gap that would be a sign of heavy wear).

 

Use a light and see if you can get any angle to look at the ends of the selector forks - you may be able to tell if there is any excessive wear.

 

Any obvious specks of brass when you drained the gb oil, or in the bottom of the gb?

 

Check the end float on the main shaft - does it move forward/backward to any significant degree?  I think either the Seven or Elan manual indicates proper end float - but it shouldn't feel excessive.

 

I agree with wdb that you can't do a lot of definitive assessment without opening it all up - but with the above you may be able to make a preliminary assessment of whether there is reason to go further.

Edited June 29 by SENC

[jbcollier]

Due to a series of poor life choices, I have three of the mounts Senc shows to hand and I'll never use them.  If you send me your address, I'll send one to you gratis.  As I'm in Canada, you might have to pay a smidge of duty depending on how persnickety your border patrol is feeling.

[MV8]

2 hours ago, TEM said:

I did contact Ken at DBE but no joy on the PP, clutch disc, and trans mount.

 

I did find some FF1600 clutch parts but they are intended for racing so most (all?) are heavy duty with no-spring clutch discs.  And also, they are extremely expensive, $1300 - $2500 for a set.

 

I'll take a look for AP parts.

 

The kit I found from Burton is:

https://www.burtonpower.com/luk-std-clutch-kit-ford-x-flow-ohv-kent-escort-mk2-619001506.html

But this link is shy on details so I gave them a call.  They seem to have a solution with a bearing adapter to account for the difference in height between the B&B and finger type PP but I need to send pictures of my hydraulic setup.  I'm not sure why.  They said their solution will work with some hydraulic setups and not with others.  The gentlemen did not offer details when asked.  I will share Burtons response once I get it next week.

Pegasus has stock type parts but they are still high.

I think that Burton kit in your link (with the offset/curled tip levers) will work. A '75-81 Escort mk2 with a 1.3 or 1.6 kent should have a 190x22.5-20T clutch, unless it is a '78-80 that is equipped with an RS2000 trans that also included a larger disc (215x25.4-23T).

[SENC]

Also be sure to inspect the seal in the tailshaft extension (where the yoke/propshaft enters).  If you need to replace it, it is much easier to do so with the extension removed from the gearbox - and off you can also inspect the bushing for unusual wear.

 

This link may be helpful, as well...

https://lotuselan.net/wiki/Gearbox_(Transmission)_-_Fault_Finding

[TEM]

SENC,  how do I check the seal in this area?  Is this something that can be inspected from the outside or do you need to remove the tail shaft?  I do have oil slowly dripping from the tail shaft as it sits horizontally on my garage floor (slightly tail down).  Is this an indication of a leaking seal or is this normal?

[SENC]

You can look at it without disassembly.  Check to make sure it isn't obviously cracked, missing a chunk, or distorted/out of shape/oblong (sometimes when sitting for a long time the yoke can get stuck to it).  You should be able to push on it to see that the rubber inner ring still has some pliability.  Also inspect the yoke for signs of pitting/damage or even wear from the seal.  Put some assembly lube or similar on the yoke and insert it into the tailshaft extension and onto the shaft and inspect for any obvious poor fit.

 

Since you haven't reported leaking from the gearbox before removing it, the seal is likely OK.  Leaking now from that area is a non-issue - there is nothing to prevent it.  The seal seals against the yoke.

 

You might also make sure the plug in the base of the yoke is well-seated and holds oil.  It is possible, if not being careful, for the tailshaft to hit the plug from the inside of the yoke and to unseat that plug - which would then leak.