wdb Posted August 6 Share Posted August 6 (edited) (Starting a new thread so as not to junk up the other one) Does anyone know for certain if this is the motor mount bracket that will allow a dry sump oil pump with integrated filter to be used in a Caterham with a Ford Kent engine? https://caterhamparts.co.uk/engine-mounts/106-engine-mounting-bracket-ford-crossflow-dry-sump.html I've reached out to Caterham, here is their response: " Thank you for your e-mail. Yes, this was used on dry sump ford units and as you can see from the photo is angled to avoid hitting a few things. Regards" What I have not had any luck finding is an image or description of EXACTLY IN WHAT DIRECTION the integrated oil filter protrudes from the pump. The Burton pics for the Titan pump, and those on Pegasus for the FF pump, do not show the orientation of the unit on the side of the block. Pegasus says their pump won't fit a Caterham because of the engine mount bracket. Burton doesn't appear to like responding to requests for information; I've tried twice so far. The mount bracket I currently have is curved, in a manner very similar to the one pictured above. Here it is, with a dry sump oil pump in place. From below -- front of engine is to the right From the rear From the front Edited August 6 by wdb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSXguy Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 (edited) The mount you have is to be used on a Kent with 4/5 port dry sump pump (i prefer 5 port for ease) and remote oil filter housing. The intergral filter dry sump pumps don't work with the Kent in a 7 based care due to how the engine is supported as the filter is typically oriented such that it points towards the rear (gearbox); thereby fouling on the engine mount. However, they can (and often are) used on FF racers or similar along with the other vintage cam/timing cover mounted dry sump pumps. Hope that helps. Dez. Edited August 7 by NSXguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSXguy Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 By the way, attached is a picture of an integral filter on a FF type racer for reference. -Dez 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 If determined to use the filter pump on the side, a mount can be made that would still provide filter access using a socket-type filter wrench. These days, there may be a way to have the area scanned with the filter pump installed and scan the existing bracket, then email the files to a techy fabricator to make the mount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb Posted August 7 Author Share Posted August 7 12 hours ago, NSXguy said: By the way, attached is a picture of an integral filter on a FF type racer for reference. -Dez This is exactly what I needed, thank you. Do you know whether that is the filter orientation for FF as well as Titan pumps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb Posted August 7 Author Share Posted August 7 5 hours ago, MV8 said: If determined to use the filter pump on the side, a mount can be made that would still provide filter access using a socket-type filter wrench. These days, there may be a way to have the area scanned with the filter pump installed and scan the existing bracket, then email the files to a techy fabricator to make the mount. It might be possible, but I don't see it being very robust. There isn't much space between the two lower motor mount bolt holes and the oil filter. If it's been done I'm happy to be proven wrong! With pix pls thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdWills Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 Hi wdb. Caterham contracted Arch Motors to produce a couple of alternative engine brackets for the Crossflow engine cars fitted with a dry sump pump. As Caterham sponsored a racing series for 7s using the various tuned Crossflow engines, no doubt the cars required different brackets depending on whether the oil filter was attached to the pump or remote or perhaps still wet sump? When Caterham - under the original Graham Nearn/David Wakefield ownership - were using the Ford Crossflow engine in various stages of tune, and with a variety of chassis upgrades, Arch was their constructor. Caterham has been under new ownership possibly two times since, and later went to a different chassis builder (Cages), changed the chassis accordingly, and sourced a variety of different engines - Ford and non-Ford based. If you require a modified bracket for your Lotus Seven or Caterham 7 car fitted with a Crossflow or any Kent based engine, I am guessing that a call or email to Arch would be fruitful, as they would have the jigs for all the Kent based configurations of brackets If you provide your chassis/build number (CBU# or vin#) they could make a bracket to your design. Arch are against producing parts for non Lotus Seven or Caterham 7 cars according to the owner Bruce Robinson, so a line to them will advise how they confirm this. Xtra Special Sevens owner Mick was also a great fabricator, but he has since closed his shop. Mike Brotherwood may be a possibility?. Arch will sell any brackets and chassis parts direct from their factory. You do not have to go through Redline if you choose not to (again according to Bruce Robinson). Photo of bracket options attached. The first in line is no longer shown on the Caterham Cars web site. Not sure wdb if your engine bracket is #1 or #2, as in one photo your right hand side bracket looks like #2, but in another it may have a curve as in #1? All brackets manufactured by Arch Motors. #3 is a bracket is designed for dry sump, but with less of a curve. The last #4 and #5 bracket are standard for the uprated Crossflow with standard Ford pump and wet sump (R.H. and L.H.). As the pre-uprated 2737E Crossflow engine was 1/4 inch narrower than the uprated 711 M block, it used a shorter bracket on the left hand side if memory serves. I may stand corrected on this, and apologies if it is misinformation, but Arch will confirm. I do know for sure that the pre uprated block was narrower. Original left hand side engine brackets from Lotus had a tab welded on to support the car horn. Many horns fell off due to vibration (as on my car) and were accidentally run over. Cheers WF 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 2 hours ago, wdb said: It might be possible, but I don't see it being very robust. There isn't much space between the two lower motor mount bolt holes and the oil filter. If it's been done I'm happy to be proven wrong! With pix pls thx. I can see how it can be done, and more robust than the typical mount, but I've not seen any examples. I can use mspaint to draw on the pics to show the general idea if you'd like. The base plate on the block is oversize, with the bottom edge near the pan rail and the upper higher as well, space permitting. The tube that attaches the mount to the chassis rubber is also longer by an inch or so with a longer bolt. Bent tubes would not be fitted, using 0.100-0.125" x 6" or so common steel strip/plate instead. The plates are parallel at the base plate as far apart as a socket on the mounting hardware will allow, are bent to fit without the filter in place, then boxed with strip along the top and bottom for a asymmetrical "dog leg" tube mount. The opening for the filter to fit through is then cut out with plasma (can't be cut when flat since it will be in the curve). A tube can be rolled to fit the opening for the filter but I don't think it would be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 Here is a crude pic of what I described. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb Posted August 8 Author Share Posted August 8 19 hours ago, EdWills said: Hi wdb. Caterham contracted Arch Motors to produce a couple of alternative engine brackets for the Crossflow engine cars fitted with a dry sump pump. As Caterham sponsored a racing series for 7s using the various tuned Crossflow engines, no doubt the cars required different brackets depending on whether the oil filter was attached to the pump or remote or perhaps still wet sump? When Caterham - under the original Graham Nearn/David Wakefield ownership - were using the Ford Crossflow engine in various stages of tune, and with a variety of chassis upgrades, Arch was their constructor. Caterham has been under new ownership possibly two times since, and later went to a different chassis builder (Cages), changed the chassis accordingly, and sourced a variety of different engines - Ford and non-Ford based. If you require a modified bracket for your Lotus Seven or Caterham 7 car fitted with a Crossflow or any Kent based engine, I am guessing that a call or email to Arch would be fruitful, as they would have the jigs for all the Kent based configurations of brackets If you provide your chassis/build number (CBU# or vin#) they could make a bracket to your design. Arch are against producing parts for non Lotus Seven or Caterham 7 cars according to the owner Bruce Robinson, so a line to them will advise how they confirm this. Xtra Special Sevens owner Mick was also a great fabricator, but he has since closed his shop. Mike Brotherwood may be a possibility?. Arch will sell any brackets and chassis parts direct from their factory. You do not have to go through Redline if you choose not to (again according to Bruce Robinson). Photo of bracket options attached. The first in line is no longer shown on the Caterham Cars web site. Not sure wdb if your engine bracket is #1 or #2, as in one photo your right hand side bracket looks like #2, but in another it may have a curve as in #1? All brackets manufactured by Arch Motors. #3 is a bracket is designed for dry sump, but with less of a curve. The last #4 and #5 bracket are standard for the uprated Crossflow with standard Ford pump and wet sump (R.H. and L.H.). As the pre-uprated 2737E Crossflow engine was 1/4 inch narrower than the uprated 711 M block, it used a shorter bracket on the left hand side if memory serves. I may stand corrected on this, and apologies if it is misinformation, but Arch will confirm. I do know for sure that the pre uprated block was narrower. Original left hand side engine brackets from Lotus had a tab welded on to support the car horn. Many horns fell off due to vibration (as on my car) and were accidentally run over. Cheers WF Fantastic information! Thank you. I've reached out to Arch -- hopefully the correct outfit, there are several that appear in a google search. I went with the one listed at https://www.anglocanadianlotus7.ca/lotus-seven-parts-suppliers-list/ I agree that it's a bit tough to figure out which mount I have. It has two separate pieces at the engine block, like #1. But the curves in the tubes look a lot like #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 (edited) 7 hours ago, wdb said: It has two separate pieces at the engine block, like #1. But the curves in the tubes look a lot like #2. I think you have #1 https://archmotor.co.uk/ info@archmotor.co.uk Edited August 8 by IamScotticus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb Posted August 9 Author Share Posted August 9 Quick update. Arch Motors responded quickly, but they're a bit busy and should be able to fully reply early next week. I'm impressed. Burton Power on the other hand has yet to reply to either of my inquiries; it's been about 10 days. I get it, an outfit can be very busy and so on. But if you're so backed up that it takes weeks to reply, at least set an auto reply saying so. Otherwise you just look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 I've had problems contacting Arch due to my emails going to the SPAM folder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb Posted August 12 Author Share Posted August 12 Eureka! Burton Power finally got back to me. According to them the Titan dry sump oil pump orients the oil filter at approximately the same angle as the original oil pump, which means I only need to be concerned about clearance for the additional scavenging stage of the pump. I believe the mount bracket I have does just that. Woohoo! Per the response from Burton Power: "When viewed from the side of the block, the oil filter is approximately at the 5 o'clock position as picture attached." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb Posted August 24 Author Share Posted August 24 Well sh*t. Sh*t, sh*t, sh*t. I just found this out yesterday, immediately reached out to Burton Power but of course they're closed and they take days to respond in the best of times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 (edited) Burton guys... Edited August 24 by IamScotticus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 (edited) Install the flange fitting and hose fitting with the flat toward the block, then install the pump assy to the block. Looks like there is just enough space to do that. Better to have an elbow fitting machined or cut and tig weld to make the fitting longer to drop the threads below the pan rail. Edited August 25 by MV8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 I think the issue is that Burton said the filter orientation was more or less vertical, even gave a diagram. This would be incorrect, as the filter location is obstructing the engine mount. I wonder how this went wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb Posted August 25 Author Share Posted August 25 And it's a Monday holiday over there so we get to wait a while for clarification. Meanwhile I managed to remove the air suspension springs from the back of my Merc wagon in only 8 hours! Success!! I think. Man were they ever locked in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSXguy Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 (edited) The orientation was already established earlier in this thread. You’d only have had to compare the photo of the pump they sent you with the image I shared to see that their response was incorrect. These pumps (and all related variants) are not getting reinvented so the orientation has been the same since the early days. Edited August 26 by NSXguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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