Turbos on a Seven

[BusaNostra]

"I have built 180-190 HP to the wheels Zetec and yes I know what thay can do , I will never understand people that say they dont need that much HP , nice thing about turbos is you can lower the boost if you dont need it , remote switch on my steering wheel drops mine from 24 to 16psi 500hp to 280 hp at the flick of my thumb "

 

 

 

 

First, before you argue with MOPHO or any of us, have u driven a seven at the road track?

Do you know anything about a sevenesque car? Do u own one? If you haven't driven one at the track, it will be hard for you to convince 7 owner's with 170-180hp that they need more.

They will prove you wrong --- power is not everything.

So, why not bring your Focus & run with Croc & the boys, see for yourself. These people are running a lot in New Jersey track.

Better yet - bring your 657hp focus and run with Westtexass2k at the "run & gun" or texas miles....maybe you'll change your mind.

[HOTTTCAR]

Going around corners is fun and the reason most of us have these little cars is the way they handle in a curve but why not extend the enjoyment to the straight bits as well or does sanity kick in. For me the fun of driving these things is learning to keep the car on the edge of traction at every point on the track, that includes breaking, cornering and if you have enough power the straight also. Approaching a corner at 170 mph like John does with his Stalker at VIR is not every ones cup of tea, But just driving a car like that on the back roads with a power to weight ratio of 1 to 3.3 is very exhilarating.

Maybe what we are talking about here is owning a car that is balanced to your personal needs and skill level. If you have that you have the perfect car.

[1turbofocus]

First, before you argue with MOPHO or any of us, have u driven a seven at the road track?

Do you know anything about a sevenesque car? Do u own one? If you haven't driven one at the track, it will be hard for you to convince 7 owner's with 170-180hp that they need more.

They will prove you wrong --- power is not everything.

So, why not bring your Focus & run with Croc & the boys, see for yourself. These people are running a lot in New Jersey track.

Better yet - bring your 657hp focus and run with Westtexass2k at the "run & gun" or texas miles....maybe you'll change your mind.

 

Please let me state I am not trying to argue with any one .. Yes I have driven a Caterham but never in competition , I love the cars I do not own one , I have built Zetec engine from stock to making much more power and seen what the drivers did with another 90HP and they loved it coming back and saying they wished they had another 40HP , this coming from my Caterham customers

 

I love track driving but I cant drive a steak in a watermellon so me coming to run against some one wouldnt do much good and would prove nothing but he is faster in the corners and i am faster down the straights , why not make th Caterham faster in both , just because my Focus makes 723HP does not mean I have to use 723 HP

 

A 300HP Caterham Zetec could run at 200 , 230 , 250 , 270 , 300HP use the HP/TQ as needed when needed for the track conditions , bigger track use the 270,300hp , smaller tighter track use the 200-230 hp a little common sense has to come into play here as well

 

Are the na-sayers saying that a 180hp Caterham wouldnt handel the same making 200HP or 230 with a turbo on it ?

 

Tom

[1turbofocus]

Going around corners is fun and the reason most of us have these little cars is the way they handle in a curve but why not extend the enjoyment to the straight bits as well or does sanity kick in. For me the fun of driving these things is learning to keep the car on the edge of traction at every point on the track, that includes breaking, cornering and if you have enough power the straight also. Approaching a corner at 170 mph like John does with his Stalker at VIR is not every ones cup of tea, But just driving a car like that on the back roads with a power to weight ratio of 1 to 3.3 is very exhilarating.

Maybe what we are talking about here is owning a car that is balanced to your personal needs and skill level. If you have that you have the perfect car.

Well stated , sanity has never kicked in for me , I learned a long time ago that just because you had a lot of HP you dont have to use it BUT you cant use it if it isnt there

 

I feel HP is 1/3rd of the process

 

It takes

A good driver

well set up car

HP/TQ

 

Tom

[MoPho]

 

I am really shocked at what I read here

"MoPho Track days are not a race, so why do you need to blow by GT3's on the straight? What does that prove?

Make them give you a point by in the corners, that is much more impressive

Driver > hp/money "

Lets all just go to the track in Kia`s then if power isnt needed and what fun is it to only be... fast in the corners ????? please tell me you dont believe this how is only being fast in the corners impressive

 

What's there to be shocked about? Anyone can throw money at their car to make it go faster, learning to drive a slower car fast, that is impressive. HP is a crutch

 

And there will always be someone who spent more money and is faster down the straight, so what does that prove besides you have more money to blow?

 

 

When I was at Car and Driver, one of the test drivers kicked my ass hard while I was driving a Porsche GT3RS and he was in a Volvo C30. Another time he beat me while I was in a 300hp STI and he was in a 75hp Westfield 11 (which by the way, with a mere 75hp, was one of the most fun cars I've ever driven on the track). A lot of good the power did for me

 

 

And having driven many of these high end cars, they may be able to go faster down the straight, but they are no where near as exhilarating to drive as a 7, regardless of speed

 

 

 

and please tell me that you dont think those Caterhams could out run the GT2.GT3 if they had proper tires and were not scaired os scratching there cars on track day

 

How do you know those cars didn't have proper tires? Were there proper tires on the Caterham?

And while you can argue that they are scared of scratching their cars, we have to worry about killing ourselves as a 7 has very little crash protection

 

 

My 326HP 331TQ Turbocharged SVT Focus 3200lbs will pass GT2 , GT3 at VIR but I have no dreams that with a proper driver and good tires that I could come close to running with those cars in competition

 

Again, what competition? Most here are using their cars on the road with occasional track days. Track days aren't about beating people (well maybe in one owns mind and on the internet)

And you kind of prove my point that hp isn't going to make you faster

 

I have built 180-190 HP to the wheels Zetec and yes I know what thay can do

,

 

My car makes 175hp to the wheels http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/533.gif

 

I will never understand people that say they dont need that much HP , nice thing about turbos is you can lower the boost if you dont need it , remote switch on my steering wheel drops mine from 24 to 16psi 500hp to 280 hp at the flick of my thumb

 

If you have to turn it down all the time, what's the point?

 

There is a guy here with a 700hp Lotus Exige, it is both turbocharged and Supercharged, it is very neat and insanely fast, but he has posted videos of him driving that have data overlays and he barely ever goes over half throttle. He just can't use all the power. So the only thing it is good for is bragging on the internet about it (which he is famous for, and not in a good way)

To add, with all that power, he has had to put huge wheels and tires on it, widen the car,big brakes, a giant wing, etc, he also had to spend a bunch of money to cut back all the extra weight he added to the car. And then stuff started breaking, engines, transmissions, etc. it has been endless

 

I also know a guy here with an Ariel Atom that has 550hp, it also breaks a lot and he described it as a complete handful

 

A Caterham was never designed to have big horsepower and it is a slippery slope, if you start having to add bigger tires, etc to cope with the power, you are spoiling the handling and balance

 

 

 

 

Turbos that make 300HP can spool at 2800 rpm now add trip ball bearing to that and drop it to 2500rpm sence most dont go below 4000 on the track where is the lag

SC on the Zetec make no TQ and its TQ your after

 

What about on the road? I had a WRX that was tuned and boost came on at about 2800 and it would step on its dick around tight corners, and then finally it would spool up and power would come on hard. While the power delivery was fun on freeways and from stop lights, it wasn't fun at all on the roads I drive the Caterham on.

On a 1200lb car, I feel that kind of power delivery is just going to light up the tires and go fishtailing down the road. Heck, I can already light up the tires around corners with a mere NA 175whp

 

I think 270-300HP would be a perfect compliment to the Caterhams ability to get around the track

 

And with the Duratec, you don't need a turbo to get that kind of power

 

If you spend some time on the UK forums for the Caterham you will discover that while there will always be some folks who think too much power is just enough, the general consensus is that 200hp (R400) is the perfect balance. And many will say even that is too much, especially for road use.

 

 

As you can tell I am passionate about the Zetec/Duratec and turbos , I dont mean to come across like a dick

 

No, but you do come across like you are trying to promote your business

 

I am sure you do great work, and it is certainly interesting to hear your opinion and knowledge about the motors, so don't stop, but you have to realize that a Focus is a completely different animal

 

 

 

.

Edited March 29, 2012 by MoPho

[BusaNostra]

During the 60's,70's & 80's turbocharging was not that popular. Most old timers learned how to harness power in aspirated form the proper way. Then the explosion of turbo installation in the middle of the 90's and the present. The software mapping then (like electromotive/motec) are not for novice & not user friendly. You have to calculate so many parameters needed by the software for the engine to run properly. Ex..injector parameter-duty cycle- time on for one gama - throttle position-fuel enrichment-starting/acceleration/decelleration enrichment-mat voltage compensation-warm up parameters/volumetric effeciency & correction tables of the air fuel mixture & boost- advance table-coolant-ego-knock-idle- and many many more.

 

On the later part, the mapping software like AEM EMS were becoming easy & almost plug and play. The availability of turbo "made in china" flooded the Ebay.

The young wannabes, think they know a lot --- turbocharging simply a cheater (similar to nitrous system-easy power-inhale and exhale & u blow) and no brainer to install. The rice boys was born with joy stick in their hand but without understanding the engineering behind a combustion engine.

 

You argue? I told you I have millions of turbo(i will not lie) and I know about turbo & supercharger next to GOD.

http://www.mjmturbos.com/Graveyards.htm

Edited March 29, 2012 by BusaNostra

[1turbofocus]

I can do the tuning like I said , I would rather use the stock Ford ECU over anything out there and I can make a set of 96lb Injectors idle run and drive like the stock 19lb that came in the Zetec , AEM EMS cant touch what the stock ECU has to offer and to me the stock ECU is easier to tune with , the one part about the AEM EMS i do like is the tuning on the fly other then that ...no thanks if I get to choose , I tune all software tho

 

I have tuned so many stock ECU Zetec engines on my dynojet dyno that I can remote tune (via Internet) NA or Boosted Zetec and never needs to go to a dyno , I tune SCCA winning Caterhams this way and have for a few years now

 

This isnt the 60,70,80 or the 90 as you know turbos have come a long way in just the last 5 years , I am not a fan or most any factory turbocharged cars as they tend to have small quick spooling turbo on there cars and you get a hugh hit of power at x rpm vs a turbo that starts spooling at 2500 and hits full boost at say 3400 and making 280hp

 

Superchargers in my opinion are a wast of time on a 2.0 engine , SC like the jrsc was a joke , Porweworks same thing on the Zetec engine total waste of time and money

 

I am not some wanabee kid that thinks about one day having a turbo and going fast

 

You can look around here http://www.focusfanatics.com my name there is the same as here , I have built my respect in the Focus community and would like to do the same here

 

As for the duratec and not needing boost to get that kind of power your correct UNLESS you want to run 91 or 93 octane and keep your Caterham a daily driver then those 12-1 UK engines wont do you a lot of good on our crappy gas , Duratec with boost making 300hp you could run 87 even , try that on a UK 280-300hp Duratec engine

 

I am NOT trying to sell anything or promote my buisness I am just responding to whats being said and giving my opinion , I am semiretired and typing this from my beach house in Progreso Yucatan Mexico , I do the tuning and building because I enjoy doing it more then anything. I charge people for what I do to keep everyone honest LOL

 

Like I said I have always wanted to Turbo one of these cars and have said that to every person that owns a Caterham I would just find it interesting to do and build and feel the Caterham can handle 280 to 300HP with no problem

 

Tom

[ayseven]

Maybe it's already been said, but I kind of thought the appeal of the 7 as a style, was that you could do whatever you wanted with it: some have turbos, some have "gasp" bike engines, some have electric power, etc. It's not everyone's cup of tea to have a monster engine, but if someone has an itch for mental power, I'm always happy to watch the video of it. There are equal advantages and disadvantages to all the choices.

[Kitcat]

Ayseven:

 

I agree. All 1turbofocus said was that he'd be interested in doing a turbo se7en. He didn't say anyone w/o one was an idiot, or that n/a se7ens were unmanly. And as a se7en owner, I find it interesting. Skip Cannon did it w/his (brilliant) Miata engined turbo Cat that has caused me to have sporadic car envy (altho it mite also be the color:)).

Edited March 29, 2012 by Kitcat

[MoPho]

Ayseven:

 

I agree. All 1turbofocus said was that he'd be interested in doing a turbo se7en. He didn't say anyone w/o one was an idiot, or that n/a se7ens were unmanly. And as a se7en owner, I find it interesting. Skip Cannon did it w/his (brilliant) Miata engined turbo Cat that has caused me to have sporadic car envy (altho it mite also be the color:)).

 

 

But he did ask why some would feel a turbo wouldn't suit a Seven well, and he got an answer.

 

Seeing how he doesn't own one and only shows up here talking about 700hp Focus's when the discussion of Turbos or more power comes up, I got the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that he doesn't quite understand what these cars are truly about :cheers:

 

 

 

.

[Klasik-69]

This is an interesting thread. I race a spec Miata and I'm going to run my Caterham R300 in the SEDIV SCCA timed trials events this year. I do spend a lot of time on the tracks, more than roads. Yes, the R300 is an ideal car that is well balanced and can carve like a scalpel. However, when I hit the straights at Sebring or Roebling, I wouldn't mind an additional 80 or 100 hp to keep ahead of every car I just passed on the twisties. And I know there is argument both ways, but I don't think there is a substitute for pure sheer speed, it gives me an adrenaline rush. So, I'd like a little button on the steering wheel that I can turn on at will for the extra power. Yeah, I hate seeing that GT3 coming back at me on the straight only to repeat the whole ordeal on the turns. However, I'd hate to ruin the balance of this fine auto. Can I have it both ways ? With my Z06 I'd hit 175 on the straight at Daytona before jamming on the brakes...talk about a thrill.

[1turbofocus]

Do I really need to know what a car is "about" to make statements about adding a Turbo or more performance, I have drove several Caterhams/Berkins and I see where there appeal is and like I said with 180-190HP to the wheels with my built engines and I still feel they can handle more power

 

I have asked Caterham/Berkin owners with 170-180 hp to the wheels if they felt the Caterham/Berkin would handle another 75-125 HP to the wheels and they have all said yes and with out loosing its handeling ability , you can even buy 250+ NA Caterham engines do they cause adverse effects in the way the car goes around the track ? Not that I have seen

 

Turbo isnt for everyone and I know that, I mentioned Focus because thats what I do most ( Focus-Power ) and where I cut me teeth on the Zetec in 1999

 

Tom

[1turbofocus]

This is an interesting thread. I race a spec Miata and I'm going to run my Caterham R300 in the SEDIV SCCA timed trials events this year. I do spend a lot of time on the tracks, more than roads. Yes, the R300 is an ideal car that is well balanced and can carve like a scalpel. However, when I hit the straights at Sebring or Roebling, I wouldn't mind an additional 80 or 100 hp to keep ahead of every car I just passed on the twisties. And I know there is argument both ways, but I don't think there is a substitute for pure sheer speed, it gives me an adrenaline rush. So, I'd like a little button on the steering wheel that I can turn on at will for the extra power. Yeah, I hate seeing that GT3 coming back at me on the straight only to repeat the whole ordeal on the turns. However, I'd hate to ruin the balance of this fine auto. Can I have it both ways ? With my Z06 I'd hit 175 on the straight at Daytona before jamming on the brakes...talk about a thrill.

 

Thats how I feel and why I jumped into this thread , a track like VIR with the long straights (guessing sebring roebling is the same?)I see the Caterhams hold better than there own in the corners then get blistered on the straights to then see them get lapped in 3-5 laps , small tight track like MSR Houston would be a whole different game and you wouldnt need the power so back it down to adding only 40-60HP

 

The nice thing about turbos and todays technology is you can have a boost controler and set it where you want it , with the wireless remote switch on the steering wheel you can go from 8psi to 15psi and back at the flick of you thumb or go fancy and different boost in different gears or different boost at different RPM or both LOL

 

Tom

[speedwagon]

You pays your money and makes your choices, to each his own, First started using turbos in early 70s cause they were cheap power and reliable, the tech. has changes remarkably over the years, but it is hard to get the instant response from a turbo engine that you can get from a NA, turbo lag is a non factor now but the quick bark that comes from a normally aspirated engine is hard to obtain, as for engine management being complicated- it is the same either way when you start extracting large amounts of power from a small engine. for my part; I am quite willing to admire both the workmanship and driving skill that comes from the owners of these cars. let's not fight- there are very very few true lotus 7s out there.

[MoPho]

Do I really need to know what a car is "about" to make statements about adding a Turbo or more performance

 

 

Well, yes, otherwise you are just arbitrarily commenting about adding power without knowing the consequences

 

 

 

 

I have asked Caterham/Berkin owners with 170-180 hp to the wheels if they felt the Caterham/Berkin would handle another 75-125 HP to the wheels and they have all said yes and with out loosing its handeling ability ,

 

That's not what I call big horsepower and as I noted you can get that kind of power already from Caterham without the complication, heat, power delivery, etc of a turbo. And yes, they will run fine on pump gas, I know several people with such motors

 

Thats how I feel and why I jumped into this thread , a track like VIR with the long straights (guessing sebring roebling is the same?)I see the Caterhams hold better than there own in the corners then get blistered on the straights to then see them get lapped in 3-5 laps , small tight track like MSR Houston would be a whole different game and you wouldnt need the power so back it down to adding only 40-60HP

 

And hence my [tongue in cheek] comment earlier about doing it wrong and needing to find better suited roads/track.

If you regularly are racing on a track where the straight is so long that you are hitting 150+mph perhaps you should have bought a Corvette

 

But again, a track day is not a race, so what does it matter if you get passed on the straight? Is it just ego?

 

 

Look, if someone feels a need to run big power or turbo their car, that's their choice, but you asked why someone would feel it is unnecessary.....

 

 

 

 

 

.

[jlumba81]

Just curious if anyone has tried a nitrous set up on their 7? You'd get extra hp w/ a button push for the straight w/o dealing w/ turbo packaging and heat issues. Or anyone w a turbo set up running alcohol?

[scannon]

Or anyone w a turbo set up running alcohol?

 

Not running pure alcohol but I have a water/methanol injection system on my turbo setup. Its main purpose is to cool the charge to prevent pre-ignition. It comes on at 4 psi boost and makes our 91 octane premium squirrel piss into something close to 100 octane. The system also changes the computer map to one with more aggressive timing and leaner fueling.

[jlumba81]

I'm familiar w/ the water/methanol injection system. There's a guy in town that's done a bunch of installs on subarus and a few srt-4 neons. He's an older guy who used to tune buick grand nationals. Skip have you put the 7 on the dyno w the water/meth system yet?

[scannon]

I'm familiar w/ the water/methanol injection system. There's a guy in town that's done a bunch of installs on subarus and a few srt-4 neons. He's an older guy who used to tune buick grand nationals. Skip have you put the 7 on the dyno w the water/meth system yet?

Not since I got it working correctly. There is a button to turn the system on and off and I can feel a difference between them. The last dyno without the system was 301 WHP and about 265 lb ft of torque. Since then I have removed the catalytic converter and brought the injection system on line and I'm guessing these two changes added around 30 HP.

[1turbofocus]

Well, yes, otherwise you are just arbitrarily commenting about adding power without knowing the consequences

.

 

Sense you want to be that way I`ll be your huckleberry , I dont arbitrarily comment about adding HP with turbos and I know the consequenses and that goes for lawn mowers the the blown Alci hydro engines I use to build , I know how to make TQ/HP and know the consequenses of doing so how the driver uses his right foot is a whole different discussion

 

 

 

 

That's not what I call big horsepower and as I noted you can get that kind of power already from Caterham without the complication, heat, power delivery, etc of a turbo. And yes, they will run fine on pump gas, I know several people with such motors

.

 

Who said anything about BIG HP those are your words , show me some one making 260-280 pound foot of TQ on 91 octane fuel with a Caterham Zetec or Duratec , turbos do far more then just add HP , I build for TQ thats what gets you dont the track , HP gets you to the track

 

 

And hence my [tongue in cheek] comment earlier about doing it wrong and needing to find better suited roads/track.

If you regularly are racing on a track where the straight is so long that you are hitting 150+mph perhaps you should have bought a Corvette

.

A Corvette after you telling me how well the Caterham out does a GT3 in the corners because you have a long track like VIR you give up the Caterham for a corvette or in your words find a "better suited" track for the Caterham?, why not add a little more TQ/HP to the Caterham and have the best of both worlds and run at the bigger tracks

 

But again, a track day is not a race, so what does it matter if you get passed on the straight? Is it just ego?

.

Then why pay 30,000.00 + for a Caterham to go to track days why not a 3,500.00 used KIA with a good set of tires , your not racing right ? Is it ego?

 

 

Look, if someone feels a need to run big power or turbo their car, that's their choice, but you asked why someone would feel it is unnecessary....

Again you used big power , I never said anything about big power but 280-300 pound foot of TQ would be very nice compliment to the Caterham I think

 

Tom