RGTorque Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 hello all, im posting now more out of frustration and the need to vent man than anything else. beware... :rant: for those who dont know of my 7 it is a world class motorsports ultralite with a 2001 miata engine, the only one of its kind. i have had my 7 for since 2007 and when i bought it the car came with many problems because it was poorly assembled by the original owner. i have since corrected and upgraded almost every system in the car. one of the recent (2 years and 200 miles ago) upgrades done is custom turbo system. there were many issues with fabrication, and fitment but we managed to put it all in. i put the car away about 2 years ago because the injectors i was using (430cc supra) were giving us tuning troubles, i had a crack in my exhaust manifold, and i had serious issues starting the car (poor coding in the hydra ems version 2.5). fast forward to this spring. i upgraded my hydra ems from 2.5 to 2.7 to fix my starting issues, purchased a set of 600cc injectors that there was already a great fuel map for, and fixed my exhaust manifold. i put this all together and go to start the car (2 years not running) and it starts right up YAYAYAYAYAY starting issue solved... not so fast. within a few revolutions its only firing on 2 cylinders (3/4). speaking with the tuner and flying miata over the past month and a half i check every possible thing. plugs, coils, battery, injectors, harness with no issue found. i end up sending the computer to flying miata for testing and its working properly as well. today the tuner drove 2 hr to me to work on the car. after confirming some basics we find that the hydra is not reading cam position correctly. we swap the cam and crank sensors out of the miata that he drove up with no effect. as it sits: cam and crank are properly timed (as they should be since i drove the car like this when i parked it) sensors for cam and crank work harness leading to the sensors test out working the ecu that the harness connects to is also working (in flying miatas test car) sooooooooooooo at this point the next time we can meet is in 2 weeks. if not fixed then we will tow it to shop 2 hr away. :banghead: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHKflyer52 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Keep at it and don't let the disapointment of all this get you down. It is most likely something simple like a ground wire or a wire that is not making a good connection. You have the correct people helping you if they are from flying miata as they very good at what they do and know the Hydra System. You'll get it to work eventually and then that first drive will be well worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Roman, Things like this can be "death by a thousand cuts" (just ask Kitcat). An approach that may sound extreme, but in my experience winds up taking the least time overall, is to get a complete working system that's one-for-one identical to yours. Then swap parts one at a time and test each change rigorously. Or, perhaps and better still, re-spec your system to one that is an exact copy of an existing system that has been well-developed - stressing "well developed" here. If you're working with an existing tested reference system you'll have higher chances of success searching for whatever thing or combination of things trouble your car. My experience, which was by all accounts successful of over a year's work doing ECM tuning on several different systems, made choosing to buy my S2K a no-brainer: it used an absolutely stock engine and engine management system with very few missing parts (e.g., smog pump, evap-management, ...). When I got it I bought a Helms manual and spent weeks pouring over the specs, schematics, ... and did the implementation ensuring that I replicated exactly what Honda had developed. It has paid off handsomely - I have had no issues of any kind with the engine/engine system. When I modify the car in the future, I'll start with a system I understand, have excellent references for, and have experience with. It would be nice to be able to provide a straightforward fix, but my experience has been that the S2K is no more a "kit" than is a pile of two-by-fours and a bucket of nails a pre-fab house. And engine systems are subtle when they've been tinkered with - my 18-year-old Honda Civic has been delivering amazing power without as much as a hick-up for years and years - and with a 1500 cc engine! Wonderful, reliable performance is quite possible, but it doesn't "just happen". Since your system has not been run much, consider using Sea Foam in the gas - my experience and other references suggest it's valuable for keeping things from gumming up or corroding over time. I would like to pass on thanks for the note you published on Rod Ends a while back. The first time I took my S2K out I thought the rear end and then the front end were about to fall off - due to the crap rod ends that came with the "kit". Your reference of Fastener Specialties and Gary for these parts not only got me even better information about this technology than I had sorted out on my own, but saved me nearly $80 over the going price for a set of very good and suitable pieces for my car (now to the work or swapping them out in an aready-aligned car :-( ). You might look at the books by Carroll Smith, Preparing/Tuning/Engineering To Win. With careful reading you'll find he provides very good sketches of the different systems that constitute a race car (which is what an S2K is) and gain insight into what each is supposed to do and how it's supposed to work. Best of luck in sorting things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 my problem is that there is no equivalent setup to my car. there are no other ultralite with miata drive train, and my wiring is all custom from the hydra because its fairly specific to the equipment on my car. at this point we are not even sure what parts to swap. the thing is the vehicle ran, it was driven to its current location. all that really changed is the ecu and injectors. ive tried installing 3 different sets of injectors with same result and the ecu cannot be "downgraded". perhaps ill send it in to get tested once more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHKflyer52 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Hi Roman, From what you have said it sure sounds like a wire issue or connector issue. You might want to get someone to help you read out the wires with a meter for continuity before sending the ECU back for testing. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 when my tuner was here we checked the wiring that is associated with the cam functions plus a few others from the sensors to ecu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miatacarpc Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I don't have a 2001 wiring diagram handy, but a couple of things come to mind when I'm looking at this post. Firstly, did you check your timing with a timing light? You say it's "timed correctly" but not sure what you mean by that in terms of verification. Also, I believe you have coil-on-plug ignition with the 2001, right? Did you check the map to make sure it's not trying to run the old wasted-spark configuration? The 2.7 basically means a totally new map, and you should verify that your dwell curves/injector response values etc. are all correct as well - these meant something totally different, or didn't even exist, in the 2.6. It's possible that the map they had for the 600's also had wasted spark ignition etc. enabled, and they just messed it up when they installed it and/or thinks it's running the coil packs instead of COP. Is your tach signal showing the correct values on the dash? One sign I had with my '95-powered Westie when I moved to the Hydra was that the tach showed 2x RPM, as a result of the move from coil-triggered tach to ECU-triggered tach in '95, and the fact that Hydra 2.7 *always* uses ECU-triggered tach. It sould be an indicator of whether the ECU is even trying to fire 1&2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 While im not familiar with this particular ecu, i think that the engine system can be considered as a free-standing piece, so the only difference between it and a std install is its harness. This simplifies thinking about it. Re 'it was running fine before' I had a system change one of its parameters on me when I attached a laptop to do some other work. Turned out it was getting hit by noise, probably aided by a less than good ground somewhere. This was insidious since the ecu checked by the mfg tested fine. The key here was that the head tech said "it's ok, but you might try setting #ofCylinders to 8 instead of 4." I HAD set that to the correct parm and the MSD noise changed it, i later confirmed. Take-home: make a map of the system inputs and outputs, verify each trace ( pull/jiggle each as you test), and be really obsessive about grounds and shielding. Crank and cam positions sensors may send small strength signals. For e.g. a Ford Zetec shields these traces well on their production harnesses. Also, make a list of each and every parm that your ecu uses, be sure you understand what each one means, and verify it as a matter of practice whenever you do anything to the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 another day with the tuner... still no dice. started cranking away at 8:30 left defeated at 5pm pulled the front of the motor apart. confirmed timing, placement of timing sensors, and swapped over another known working cam actuator to the front of the cam. also swapped the oil driven cam drive bits that are on top of the cam. the harness was pined out AGAIN and we followed the electrical schematic for the harness he built. everything LOOKS and pins out correct. we literally untaped the engine harness and were looking for any rubbing of broken wires... we found a few small issues but nothing that affected the car running. i should note that the ecu was sent out and tested by flying miata. they also sent the tuner a harness and he tested the ecu in his 2001 miata. both times the ecu performed without any issues. so... ecu checks out harness checks out sensors check out engine checks out arrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg~!!!!!! so there is no one else who knows this engine management system except flying miata in colorado, and i cant afford to mail the car there. i think it would be cheaper to just put in another engine. very very very frustrated 7 owner here. im starting to think about getting rid of it or swaping in a vw engine 1.8t engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scannon Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Ken Hill lives somewhere in PA and knows the Hydra system. His email is kenhillmx5@comcast.net. He's a good guy and used to work for Flyin Miata. He has a side business tuning turbo Miatas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I have heard about Ken's ability with Miata's. Here is a blurb about him here: http://www.flyinmiata.com/oracle/main.htm Then again, you could always just ship Skip out east to work on your car - it would work properly and there would be plenty of beers and laughs - which is sort of what you need right now. Keep faith Roman - we want you back out on the roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 ken hill is the guy who is tuning my car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Man that sucks... too bad you couldn't switch out the motor like you've done the ECU. Your the only person I know that has had so much trouble with a Miata motor. I'd throw in a honda S2000 motor before trying another "on your own" solution like the VW. At least it would be an easier sell if it didn't live up to your expectations. Hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 haha, im always "that guy" who has the "special problems"... my luck. the vw power train is actually a great setup for me since i am very heavily rooted in the vw community in this area. i also have a fantastic fabricator that will take on the job. also the factory ecu can be used so no more bullshit with wiring, hello obd2 scan port. that being said i am currently speaking with Loren about a certain naturally aspirated option that has seemed to work very well for all the other wcm's... i feel i am getting closer. if only i did not buy to buy the car twice over in getting it running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayseven Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I feel your pain. I am in the exact situation you describe: unique ECU, JDM engine etc. I have it with the guy who helped inspect it for the roadways here, and he is very confident in getting it going soon enough. Having one-off cars like these is not for the faint of heart; and that's BEFORE you get in and drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 officially took the first step tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) she is officially under the knife. disassembly http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6702/20120801170006.th.jpg http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5096/20120801165647.th.jpg http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4097/20120801165700.th.jpg http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9915/20120801165715.th.jpg Edited August 2, 2012 by RGTorque Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/2513/20120801165802.th.jpg Edited August 2, 2012 by RGTorque Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaz Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I know this is a little late, and this is very stupid, but have you tried swapping the battery? I know some ecu's are very picky about how strong the battery is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGTorque Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 yes i put in a new battery and made sure the it was reading high enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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