New dyno results

[Klasik-69]

After a few months of trial and error, and a PECTEL ECU that suddenly went dead, I managed to get things back on the good side. I've attached the dyno sheet to show everyone what we achieved. First off, the engine had apparently from the very beginning the wrong type of fuel injectors on the ITB's. Tom (1Turbofocus) is the one who helped me by looking at the ECU over the internet and noticed that the mapping changes weren't making the right results. When I looked into this further, I noticed they had installed low impedance 30 lb injectors (320 cc). Pectel T2 ECU can only drive high impedance injectors. I installed 42 lb Bosch high impedance units. I looked at the fuel pressure which was set at 62 psi and thought this was a bit high so I knocked it down to 45 psi with the regulator. Then I ran into a dead ECU, no fire, no kick, no nothing. Dead as dead got. After a few weeks of checking wiring, replacing the camshaft sensor, Jon at Caterham USA said it would run without a camshaft sensor but not without a crankshaft sensor. Bingo, there was my problem and after a replacement, I heard the Zetec fire up as it had in the past.

 

1Turbofocus (Tom) had given me some very good guidance on how to approach this. He really knows the Zetec engines inside and out and knows how to tune them. Well after almost 3 hours on the dyno here in Melbourne, and 18 runs, we got it where the AFR is good and safe and the best thing is we gained 13 hp and about 7 ft/lbs of torque. Amazingly we got 183 rwhp out of the 202 crank hp Zetec at 7000 rpm, and strong all the way up. As you can see from the dyno graph, the AFR stays in the 12.5 to 13.2 range whereas before I was getting in the 14.5 (Yikes) range.

 

I'm not sure if the attachment will show up as it should, not too good on these things so bear with me if it doesn't work the first time, I'll try again.

[super7guy]

That's real good to only have 10% loss in the drive train.

[Klasik-69]

Jon @ Caterham USA rates his engines on the conservative side. He told me this was rated at 202 hp but was closer to 215 hp at the crank, hence the difference. I think 15% to 18% power train loss is more likely. I'm happy.

[Croc]

Thats a pretty good result - I would be happy with that if it were mine. Is your zetec the regular or the SVT version? Also, what rev limit do you keep it too? I always thought they were not designed to go over 7000rpm?

[Marine7]

That's a great result. I dont meant to backtrack, but could what kind of intake are you running, what head work, and level of Zetec tune?

 

Allow me to add a comment about 1trubofucus (Tom). Tom really went out of his way to help me troubleshooot my mapping issues on my Zetec. In the end, it wasnt an ECU problem, but a simple injector wiring issue. Regardless, Tom is one of those special people who is willing to dedicate his time and knowledge to help like-minded enthusiasts.

 

Jason

[danilo]

That's real good to only have 10% loss in the drive train.

Motos typically average 15% losses.

Few 4 wheelers can even approach that figure

Very Odd, that 10% claim..rendering the entire 'data' as suspect

[Klasik-69]

Thats a pretty good result - I would be happy with that if it were mine. Is your zetec the regular or the SVT version? Also, what rev limit do you keep it too? I always thought they were not designed to go over 7000rpm?

 

This Zetec was supplied by Jon @ Caterham USA back in late 2003 to the original buyer of the car. I only know the components, not the basic block, and Jon has helped me tremendously from memory and records to understand this engine/ECU.

 

"That's a great result. I dont meant to backtrack, but could what kind of intake are you running, what head work, and level of Zetec tune?

 

Allow me to add a comment about 1trubofucus (Tom). Tom really went out of his way to help me troubleshooot my mapping issues on my Zetec. In the end, it wasnt an ECU problem, but a simple injector wiring issue. Regardless, Tom is one of those special people who is willing to dedicate his time and knowledge to help like-minded enthusiasts.

 

Jason"

 

Running TWM/Borla ITB now with Bosch low impedance 42 lb injectors and fuel pump turned down from 62 psi to 45 psi. Agree about Tom, great help.

 

 

Motos typically average 15% losses.

Few 4 wheelers can even approach that figure

Very Odd, that 10% claim..rendering the entire 'data' as suspect --danilo

 

I agree, but you need to read the post above whereby I state that Jon @ Caterham USA says they understated their engine power so the engine was puting out more like 215 hp rather than 202 hp as claimed on the invoice sheet. The dyno that I used has been calibrated and certified. AND, I ran the car there before and got 170.3 hp prior to adjusting the maps and correcting the incorrect injectors. Since I'm not selling anything or boasting of anything of any great output, I really don't have anything to gain from fudging or lying. Take it for what its worth. My point is proper tuning on a dyno can help if you look at all the parameters and if you get some really good help like I got from Tom @ 1turbofocus in mapping the fuel and ignition tables, and IF you have a better ECU than the simplistic one I have, likely other factors that are adjustable can also enhance your performance. I'm not bragging about 183 hp, its a really low number to me. BUT, in a 1080 lb car, its adequate.

[Klasik-69]

Thats a pretty good result - I would be happy with that if it were mine. Is your zetec the regular or the SVT version? Also, what rev limit do you keep it too? I always thought they were not designed to go over 7000rpm?

 

With regards to the rpm range, I set mine to cut off at 7200 rpm only because of all the chatter of oil pumps disintegrating above that level. I checked with Jon @ Caterham USA and he says of the 150 or so Zetec motors he has built, only one failed due to an oil pump failure. He feels that running up to 8000 rpm is safe and further adds that if the oil pump were to fail, just shut it down and the engine should be fine. I tend to agree with him. I studied the oil pump housing and determined the failure should be contained without external damage, and if the engine is shut down within 10 or 15 seconds, the chance of damage is minimal.

 

I heard similar scare stories on the Corvette Forum regarding the Z06's LS7 engine and its roller rocker arms having bearing failures causing "major catastrophic failure". Some guys sitting in their basements in their underwear in the middle of winter at their computer keyboard with nothing better to do than start a mess or rumors with little or no basis. A lot of people love hype, and even better, a disaster story. So when this kind of crap starts, it's epidemic. Harland Rockers sold a boat load of roller rockers for the Z06 with the understanding that their needle bearings were better and more durable. Who knows if they were, few if any failed either on the GM or Harland side so the argument is moot. I researched this forum to see how many Zetec engines failed due to the oil pump failure at high RPM and all I could find was reports of this happenning and not much of anyone saying yes, their engine puked as a result. Likley, 90% BS and 10% maybe.

 

In my opinon, and of greater importance, is the rolling assembly properly balanced ? Are the valve springs capable of high revs ? Is the HP and Torque still rising above 7000 rpm ?

[Kitcat]

Misc thots: I too have a '03 Zetec Caterham w/motor via Ben at Cat USA. I will get it on a dyno sometime soon and see what's what. Also will ck in w/TurboTom for one of his special Zetec tunes.

 

As posted elsewhere here, my theoretically superior Duratec (in my Birkin) was just measured at 165 hp, 150 lbs torque. So 18 less hp, 7 more lbs torque than your Zetec. Of course, chassis dynos differ. If nothing else, the results suggest a Zetec in optimal tune makes very respectable power. Redline/fuel cut-off is 7000 rpm's on both engines.

 

My Duratec was straight from the junkyard, no tune yet. So it will probably yield a bit more. It goes back in this fall for a tune so we'll see what that does. It "feels" more powerful the my Zetec tho, but who knows?

Edited August 19, 2012 by Kitcat

[Klasik-69]

I think the Duratec engines have more potential & may be more durable. It's too bad these engines have intake & exhaust on opposite sides or switching over would be much easier. If yours is right out of the boneyard, it likely doesn't have ITB intake which would likely get you additional hp without doing much else. Add a tune & maybe a little porting, more aggressive cams, & you'd be adding 30 to 40 hp. Not bad for a NA 4 bangger.

[Kitcat]

My Jenvey ITB's were added to the junkyard motor, but the Haltech ECU was just plugged back in w/prev motor's tune.

[1turbofocus]

With regards to the rpm range, I set mine to cut off at 7200 rpm only because of all the chatter of oil pumps disintegrating above that level. I checked with Jon @ Caterham USA and he says of the 150 or so Zetec motors he has built, only one failed due to an oil pump failure. He feels that running up to 8000 rpm is safe and further adds that if the oil pump were to fail, just shut it down and the engine should be fine. I tend to agree with him. I studied the oil pump housing and determined the failure should be contained without external damage, and if the engine is shut down within 10 or 15 seconds, the chance of damage is minimal.

 

I heard similar scare stories on the Corvette Forum regarding the Z06's LS7 engine and its roller rocker arms having bearing failures causing "major catastrophic failure". Some guys sitting in their basements in their underwear in the middle of winter at their computer keyboard with nothing better to do than start a mess or rumors with little or no basis. A lot of people love hype, and even better, a disaster story. So when this kind of crap starts, it's epidemic. Harland Rockers sold a boat load of roller rockers for the Z06 with the understanding that their needle bearings were better and more durable. Who knows if they were, few if any failed either on the GM or Harland side so the argument is moot. I researched this forum to see how many Zetec engines failed due to the oil pump failure at high RPM and all I could find was reports of this happenning and not much of anyone saying yes, their engine puked as a result. Likley, 90% BS and 10% maybe.

 

In my opinon, and of greater importance, is the rolling assembly properly balanced ? Are the valve springs capable of high revs ? Is the HP and Torque still rising above 7000 rpm ?

 

The oil pump failures on the Zetec engine is not chatter , If Jon has only had one failure out of 150 then most likely there not running past 7200 and not running there engines very hard like most Caterham guys I know and do buisness with , I have built over 500 of these engines now and seen over a dozen oil pump failures , the engine I build get brutalized and the guys that try to go past 7500 pay the price a lot of the time , you cannot shut down an engine turning 7500+ under load fast enough to keep it from damaging the bearings , even if you had a idiot light that comes on below 30psi which most dont have your not looking at the oil psi gauge turning 7500+ and running hard

 

C-F-M makes a billet oil pump gear that seels to be ok to about 7500 , I know of 2 of these that have broke on 400+ HP turbo cars trying to do 7800+

 

Making HP with the Zetec and Duratec is what I do , I am not "Some guys sitting in their basements in their underwear in the middle of winter at their computer keyboard with nothing better to do than start a mess or rumors with little or no basis " I do it from my Den and year round not just winter LOL

 

Seriously tho , I wouldnt go past about 7200 , most engine wont make power past 6800 anyway

 

Tom

[Kitcat]

TTom: Any idea what a Zetec can be safely "over-reved" to via inadvertently shifting into a lower gear, rather than higher (as I did yesterday at the track). I caught it almost instntly but wld estimate I ended up around 8000 for a split second. Car seemed fine after that, til the fuel pump died again-3 track days, 2 fuel pumps.

[sdaddy]

 

C-F-M makes a billet oil pump gear that seems to be OK to about 7500 ....

 

Seriously tho , I wouldn't go past about 7200 , most engine wont make power past 6800 anyway

 

Tom

 

Tom, It looks like C-F-M is "out" of the billet oil pump gear...

 

Besides the gear, is there anything else to watch out for when going to ~7200? For example, is there any benefit to ARP rod bolts on a N/A tuned Zetec 3 that will hopefully get to the 210-220 range?

Edited October 22, 2012 by sdaddy

[Klasik-69]

The word I got from Bill at C-F-M is that most stock oil pump failures seem to be related to the use of non-stock undersized pulleys, but he says the HD oil pump is almost bullet proof. Getting the HD oil pump is another matter since they never seem to be in stock. For now, rev limiter is set @ 7200 rpm. Tom is correct in saying while you're racing, oil pressure gauge is rarely looked at. Shutting the motor down instantly isn't likely.

[BusaNostra]

xxx

Edited October 30, 2012 by BusaNostra

[Kitcat]

Impressive! This is a Busa engine? If so, I had no idea they could make that kind of power, boosted or not.

 

Maybe add this result to the dyno sheet smackdown thread?

[BusaNostra]

Xxxx

Edited October 30, 2012 by BusaNostra

[1turbofocus]

Its rare but the C-F-M gears has failed and will fail at high RPM , I think the last one I seen brake he was trying to do 8200

 

Its RPM that brakes them

 

Tom

[Klasik-69]

Whether or not his pump is better is a moot argument since it doesn't appear they're available. Bill @ C-F-M was getting a new shop to produce them & it appears it never materialized. Not sure if anyone else makes one here or Europe, haven't been able to find anything.