Interesting chat with VW HQ

[Davemk1]

Hey ER -

 

How do you feel about folks using a newer Jetta TDi to tow a trailer with a Seven on it......say less than 2000 lbs in total?

 

Thanks for your input.

 

dave

[RGTorque]

your fine. what you wont want to do is try to tow a load with more weight than your vehicle. a trailer with a well placed axle will tow fine. manual trans, trailer brakes, a heavy duty rear spring or inflatable spring inserts are a plus but not required. it is of course a different towing experience that pulling with a suv or truck but coming from a truck or suv a sedan towing is awkward as well. i always advise my own customers to go to uhaul and get a 6x12 trailer, go to home depot and get a bunch of sand. this will simulate what you will experience in the future. if you feel comfortable continue on, if not, get a truck .

[bigdog]

Didn't mean to start a clash of VW's. But to repeat. VW USA Hq told me directly that the car vs SUV towing difference was in fact a matter of marketing. There might be a lawyer factor in there somewhere. Yet I can't help but wonder why VW wouldn't have said that straight away to not make themselves look bad. The origin of my thread was simply stating that my original hunch that the issue with US tow ratings had to do with marketing & VW's desire to make more profit from the American penchant for overdoing things more than it had to do with the vehicles actual ability to tow. This created the frustrating situation that in America the only vehicle I can get with a tow rating is an SUV/truck which I don't really want. Plus the fact that I need to spend 10k more & lose 8-9MPG simply because of this North American attitude.

[Davemk1]

your fine. what you wont want to do is try to tow a load with more weight than your vehicle. a trailer with a well placed axle will tow fine. manual trans, trailer brakes, a heavy duty rear spring or inflatable spring inserts are a plus but not required. it is of course a different towing experience that pulling with a suv or truck but coming from a truck or suv a sedan towing is awkward as well. i always advise my own customers to go to uhaul and get a 6x12 trailer, go to home depot and get a bunch of sand. this will simulate what you will experience in the future. if you feel comfortable continue on, if not, get a truck .

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I've had about 1500 pounds of concrete pavers and trailer behind the car and it towed very well around town but never went down the highway with it.

 

Thanks again,

 

 

dave

[turboeric]

Another data point. Subaru CrossTrek tow rating = 680 kg. (about 1500 lb) Subaru Impreza - no towing allowed. Same chassis, same drive train, same brakes.

[Warren Nethercote]

I just got back from an 2800km iceboating trip where we were towing 2 DNs in a small, aerodynamic, enclosed trailer with a friend's 2001(?) TDI Golf. The trailer didn't weigh more than about 1000lbs, so stopping wasn't an issue. The real point relates to earlier criticisms of VW reliability. This is this fellow's second TDI Golf. He put half a million km on the first one and the current one recently passed 450,000 km. No reliability issues there.

 

But I share the common dissatisfaction with downgraded tow ratings, and preference for trailers with electric brakes. It's no fun running down a long downgrade with a moderately heavy tow if you can't stab the trailer brake alone to keep the car and trailer in the correct order. :-)

[RGTorque]

just as a side note, the aftermarket and modifications community for vw is MASSIVE.

 

every generation has a base model and performance model. its VERY easy to swap the brakes from a performance model to a lower model. for example, i can upgrade the 10.1" ity bity rotors on that 2001 golf with the mid performance 11.3" good used knuckles,caliper,carrier + new pads and rotors for under $300-350 (depending on pad/rotor of choice). want bigger? just replace the carrier and rotor for additional $100-150 and get 12.3" brakes. ALL FACTORY PARTS, easy to find, no special anything required.

 

similar modifications can be made in all aspects of the car.

 

another thing. if i recall the european tow hitches from bosal have a higher tow rating then our stateside uhual/hidden hitch options.

[Klasik-69]

time to put in my opinion? i have a vw tdi specific shop here in pa and can say that most of the issues i see coming in are from a defective driving unit that is located right in front of the steering wheel. VW group has seen serious increases in sales because of increases in quality since 2006 (especially because the jetta series 5). yes these numbers fluctuate but they are a POSITIVE trend.

 

the porsche, audi, and vw suv are generally the same vehicle with extra "fixens" so saying one has a higher failure rather than the other is just wrong.

pardon grammar/spelling/rant.

 

ER, better check your facts. VW is down and has been DOWN. This is the company that was going to take over as the No. 1 car manufacturer in the world, and well, it ain't gonna happen. They represent only 2.3% of the US market and lost in January at a rate of 19%. GM, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler and Honda all blow VW out of the market. Older VW's were better and have lasted longer, hence the reason why so many are still on the road with the 100,000+ mile moniker.

 

The VW TDI is likely still the best small diesel engine in the world. It is one of the few diesel engines that require the least amount of mods to qualify for the tougher US emissions standards. In Europe, they don't give a crap about emissions and that is a reason why about 50% of their cars are diesels. Peugot has to be a strong second in quality diesel engines but you won't see them here. However, diesel engines don't stop your vehcile, your brakes and chassis dynamics do.

 

Your mention of the Touareg as a tow vehicle is excellent in the fact it weighs enough to be a safer towing vehcile that has substantially larger braking capability to stop a trailer that may not have electric brakes. Anyone towing a car on a trailer with a Jetta TDI or gas engine is really taking a chance. Yeah, I know, some have chimed in that they have towed over 28 million miles and are still alive. Karl Wallenda walked many tightropes too until, well, you know.

 

I value my life enough to use a larger and safer tow vehicle. If you want to tow the car trailer with a bicycle, go ahead. Just don't do it where I'm at so you don't run into the back of my vehicle. In other words, if you don't have any concern for your own safety, at least give some consideration to others on the road.

 

And one more thing, ER, if you ever call my Porsche a gussied up VW, I'll take you off my Christmas mailing list and there will be no more Christmas cards.:flag:

[TurboWood]

...In Europe, they don't give a crap about emissions and that is a reason why about 50% of their cars are diesels.

 

Klasic,

I don't want to pick a fight here, but this statement is really very incorrect. Diesel is used in Europe because of fuel economy. Fuel prices are crazy (~$7+/gallon). The EU is also very energy dependent on other countries and is leading the world in Emission regulations.

 

As an example the VW Polo in the UK is advertised to achieve upwards of 80mpg with a 1.2L diesel. Keep in mind the EU uses a different drive cycle than the US so it's not a perfect comparison. However, it's advertised at 67mpg with an urban drive cycle.

 

It's also interesting to point out that gasoline engines do have particulate emissions. Historically these have been largely ignored because they were so small (although in much higher numbers than diesel), but direct injection has increased particle size. There is more and more attention being placed on gasoline particulate emissions, to the point that we will likely soon see exhaust filters (already present on diesel).

 

Back to your regularly scheduled program....

 

Daniel

[Kitcat]

Klassic and TW: I think yr both right. Diesels are popular in Europe due to high cost of fuel. And, they care about emissions, but they dont care as much abt soot as US does. So their diesels, wh/can produce a lot of soot, still pass their emissions tests but not ours.

 

However, the latest diesels from VM and Mercedes do pass our higher soot standards, in part because the US has upped the nature of diesel fuel commonly sold for pedestrian cars (You never see the thick plumes of black soot coming from passenger diesels anymore). The newest diesels are totally quiet as well, no more "diesel clatter.".

 

Diesel fuel is still more expensive, some times 10 cents, some times a buck. Gas prices are all over the map, diesel pump-price seems to be more stable.

[Klasik-69]

I probably shouldn't have said that Europe doesn't give a crap about emissions, but as Kitcat pointed out, they seem to care less. Our gasoline became unleaded in the very early 70's and when I was in Europe in the 80's, leaded gasoline was all you could get.

 

85% of the diesel engines running in heavy trucks in Europe TODAY do no meet US emissions and cannot be imported. M-B developed the Urea reactor system that brings emissions down to US standards. Caterpillar, Cummins and Detroit Diesel had to "buy" the system from M-B to be able to adapt their engines to meet standards. Caterpillar commonly used a pre-combustions chamber to improve on efficiency and reduce particulates but it's tough to meet todays US emission standards. The future of diesel engines in the US is greatly limited. Waste Management is converting their fleet to run on CNG as they see the cost of the urea reactors, and their maintenance, a step in the wrong direction. Over the road use faces a different challenge in refueling with NCG and likely will continue to deal with diesel as a fuel of choice. At my business, we used to be 60% diesel and are now down to less than 25%. It will likely go even lower. It will be interesting to see which direction Europe goes.

[TurboWood]

Here is a quick snapshot for on-highway from cummins. There really isn't a big difference between Euro 6 and US 2010 limits (both in effect now). I agree that the cost to produce compliant engines is crazy (no matter it's EU or US) and that gasoline technology continues to close the gap. There is a big group of global companies supporting HEDGE which has demonstrated some cool things with very high levels of EGR on gasoline.

 

Daniel

 

http://cumminsemissionsolutions.com/ces/navigationAction.do?url=SiteContent+en+HTML+EmissionsTechnology+Worldwide_Emissions_Regualtions

[bigdog]

Klassic and TW: I think yr both right. Diesels are popular in Europe due to high cost of fuel. And, they care about emissions, but they dont care as much abt soot as US does. So their diesels, wh/can produce a lot of soot, still pass their emissions tests but not ours.

 

However, the latest diesels from VM and Mercedes do pass our higher soot standards, in part because the US has upped the nature of diesel fuel commonly sold for pedestrian cars (You never see the thick plumes of black soot coming from passenger diesels anymore). The newest diesels are totally quiet as well, no more "diesel clatter.".

 

Diesel fuel is still more expensive, some times 10 cents, some times a buck. Gas prices are all over the map, diesel pump-price seems to be more stable.

 

I can tell you as I currently live in Europe (Germany) and have for the past 3 1/2 years. It's impossible to judge by the soot levels coming out the back of cars as to whether they are diesel or not. I really can't remember seeing any soot other than an ancient M-B car.

 

Diesel here is 1.32 Euro per litre=$7.08 per gallon.

 

E-10 regular petrol is 1.44 Euro per litre=$7.74 per gallon.

 

98 octane petrol is 1.53 Euro per litre=$8.23.

 

I'm one of the lucky ones. The wife and I have a ration allowance of 400 litres per car per month and we pay the US price for petrol or diesel on the military bases or at ESSO stations in Germany. Once we leave Germany, we have to pay full market price.

 

Of course in the states diesel can be higher. But remember, Most detractors of diesel always quote the price of the lowest grade petrol. If your like me and own a BMW saloon car. then you haven't used regular for a long time.

[jimrankin]

It might be possible that the difference in towing capacity between sedans and SUVs constructed from similar base vehicles could be the upgraded spring rates and anti roll bars for SUVs. This is evident in older pickup trucks where tow packages mostly just beef up those two areas and add transmission/oil coolers. Actual weight of the truck stayed about the same {and unless you were jumping series (ie 2500 to 3500 for GM)} the brakes don't get bigger with just the tow package but the ratings can go up. Just a guess.

Also, after a lifetime of towing without a serious incident I still wouldn't tow anything but the smallest trailer without electric brakes, just too many other drivers who have no idea that cutting off someone towing a trailer so they can make the exit they almost missed is not a good idea.

[RGTorque]

jim, while this may be the same in some us vehicles, the vw suv's do not sure the same platform or underpinnings as the sedans. that being said, the crossover tiguan does share some golf/jetta hardware but i would consider that the same as a jetta/golf for towing.

[bigdog]

Has anybody heard what I said about what VW told me? Funny lot we American's. I have info strait from the horses mouth. And we still insist that it isn't so.

 

VW told me on the phone that it was primarily down to marketing. The crux of the conversation was that Amercan's expect that a tow vehicle needs to be big. VW said that by allowing the same tow ratings in America as the identical car in Europe. They would undercut sales of the bigger profit margine SUV's and so has no reason to change.

 

Yes I know. I've heard all the talk of only towing up to a certain percentage of the tow vehicles weight. Depends I suppose. My Kenworth W900L weighed 18k yet I could legally pull 62k behind it. And even though my truck was designed to do this. It was no less susceptible to spitting a trailer off in an aggressive move as the type of towing that we are talking about here.

[turboeric]

I've heard all the talk of only towing up to a certain percentage of the tow vehicles weight. Depends I suppose. My Kenworth W900L weighed 18k yet I could legally pull 62k behind it. And even though my truck was designed to do this. It was no less susceptible to spitting a trailer off in an aggressive move as the type of towing that we are talking about here.

How much of the limit is based on max trailer axle weights as opposed to the towing capacity of the Kenworth?

 

One aspect of European emissions regulations that hasn't yet been mentioned is their focus on CO2 emissions, which diesels typically have better performance than gas.

[bigdog]

Turboeric,

Nice dodge. And what of the statement from VW?

[Klasik-69]

I believe the aspect of the towing vehicle's weight vs the towed weight is only important when what us being towed doesn't provide additional braking. As in the case of a VW Jetta towing a single axle trailer w/o brakes. Bigdog's tractor pulling a GCWR 62,000 lbs has 5 axles braking, although his tractor weight is only 18,000 lbs. My F-150 4X4 weighs 5500 lbs but can tow 10,500 lbs WITH adequate trailer braking. Without it, pure suicide.

 

Now back to what Bigdog originally stated, the Jetta can pull/tow 2900 lbs. no problem here, I bet the little diesel will easily pull it. Will it stop the combined approx 6,000 lbs in a short distance in an emergency maneuver ? Do you want to bet your life on it ? I'd put either electric brakes (preferred) or surge brakes on the trailer. I'm not at all worried about the diesel's ability to pull the load even on mountain roads, they have incredible torque, and they're incredibly durable.

[bigdog]

Most of the trailers in Europe have surge brakes on them.

 

I was of the same opinion as the majority that have posted here. I.E. If one tows anything it has to be a truck of some sort. But after moving to Europe I soon saw that this wasn't quite true. The call to VW & their honest answers to my questions confirmed that it was marketing due to VW's understanding of the "it must be big" Amercan attitude and not the inability of VW's car's to tow that resulted in the USA models having a smaller by 2000lb tow rating. And even after posting what VW said, some still posted as if I just made the whole thing up or that they knew better than the VW company as to what their cars can pull.

 

Bottom line is that I think that the auto companies are doing the American public a disservice in that a person such as me that needs a new car and who will not be towing all the time, and will not be pulling a heavy load is forced to buy a much less fuel efficient vehicle to keep the drive train warranty valid.

 

I asked VW if they would be bringing a Tiguan TDI from Europe to the USA. She said probably but not till at least 2016. So at least there is some change on the horizon. In the mean time M-B is the only game in town for towing and good economy. Hopefully BMW will follow suit.