Clutch Master Cylinder

[Chopd65]

Hello,

I don't post much but read this forum regularly, this and occasionally blatchat. If I have a question about something or just looking for general info it is usually found within these two sites.

I have a question that I've not seen.

The other day, driving the 7 to work, I thought I heard an unusual noise. There are so many noises driving this car that I'm not absolutely certain. Regardless, I lost the clutch. No grinding noises, no thumping sounds, nothing seemed out of order, just no clutch. If I remember correctly I was downshifting to 3rd. I was able to rev match it to get to my office, then towed home.:cuss:

A visual inspection showed some oil on the shelf next to the clutch master cylinder and with pushing the pedal a small amount of fluid squirts out of of the vent hole on the top. With the engine off it runs through the gears fine, but running it will no go into any gear.

My thought is the master cylinder is bad, a PO had it rebuilt but not knowing the shop I have limited trust.

I want to relplace the master cylinder first as the slave cylinder resides within the bell house and requires an engine pull. I don't typically like to just throw parts(money) at a problem until solved but this is what makes sense at this point.

Does my assessment make sense?

Real question, is there a difference in quality between the the original Girling unit and the equivilant Wilwood unit? The original is a Girling 70.

 

Thanks,

Bill

Edited June 14, 2020 by Chopd65

[Anker]

It definitely sounds like the master cylinder seal is gone and that fluid is squirting past the piston when you press the clutch pedal.

[NVP66S]

Chop: You haven't said what the pedal feels like. Presumably, it has about the same or less resistance than it normally had. My Westfield has an AP Racing clutch master and it really doesn't like American brake fluid. The English seals started to dissolve into the brake fluid and the only remedy was to switch to DOT 5.1 brake fluid. (Brakes and clutches use the same hydraulic fluid) I'm not sure about Girling, but this is true of AP Racing. If this is the case, you need an overhaul of the master, and possibly the slave cylinder, for new seals.

Dan

[Chopd65]

Thanks guys.

The peddle goes right to the floor with limited resistance. At first it offered some resistance but not now.

Interesting about the seals, I'll look at that as well.

[Chopd65]

Anyone have any feedback regarding the Girling unit versus the Wilwood?

[Chopd65]

So, I changed the clutch master cylinder with the Wilwood unit, bled it thoroughly and nothing. No or little resistance right to the floor.

I'm pulling the motor this weekend, should be fun...

I have a Zetec with a 5 speed, according to the order sheet from Sevens and Elans it was ordered with the upgraded 5 speed, whatever that is.

Is the clutch slave cylinder a common piece for these or is it a matter of pulling it and matching it up? I understand it should be a stock Ford cylinder but doing research it seems like there could be some variation.

I plan on inspecting everything to be sure it's all good. I haven't had any issues with the clutch until this happened, no chatter, slippage or anything so I hopeful all is well.

Any input is appreciated.

Bill

[JohnCh]

See the first three posts on this page of my build thread for pics and part numbers. It's not clear if the Zetec uses the Contour 4 cylinder or V6 version used in the Duratec, but once it's out, you'll know. Both are easy to source in the US.

 

-John

[Chopd65]

Thanks John.

That's a big help. I've read your build thread since the beginning but didn't remember you covering it, old brain.

Bill

[JohnCh]

I've read your build thread since the beginning

 

My condolences Let us know what you learn when you pull out the old one. BTW I have both versions in boxes, so if there is any confusion or hard to read part numbers on yours, I can provide measurements.

 

Thanks,

John

[Chopd65]

John,

Condolences, that's funny. I actually just ordered both from Rock Auto for delivery tomorrow afternoon, I'll just return the unused one. I want to get through it this weekend if possible so unless there is an issue with the clutch I should be all set.

I will update once I'm into it.

Bill

[Chopd65]

I pulled the engine/tranny last weekend, separated the two to get to the slave cylinder and...chunks, of clutch plate.

[Chopd65]

The pressure plate is from Centerforce, but from the records the PO installed a Ford performance clutch. Also the flywheel, which looks a little burnt, is aluminum from Indigospeed, I couldn't find much info on them. The clutch can't have more than 7k on it in the last 12 years. I haven't raced it and I don't think it's been through anything other than occasional autocross events by POs.

Should I be looking for some underlying cause or just consider this normal?

I've contacted Josh at RMC but he didn't have anything other than a smaller clutch plate in stock, but did say that he would look into it for me.

I'm thinking I want to replace the whole mess. I don't track the car so I don't think a full on racing setup is necessary.

Any suggestions on replacement parts? The current clutch is 9 1/2".

 

Bill

[Chopd65]

Here is the flywheel.

[JohnCh]

Well, that would explain things. Yikes!

 

I'm using an AP Racing clutch and pressure plate, and a Raceline steel flywheel. I believe Caterham and SBD also use AP Racing clutch components, but I'm sure someone here can refute if that's incorrect. My clutch was out as part of the rebuild, and after 32k street miles, there was plenty of meat left on the disc, and both the pressure plate and flywheel mating surfaces were in great shape with no obvious burn marks or wear.

 

-John

[Chopd65]

Thanks John,

I’ll add those to the list. Does that set up have good street mannners?

While the engine is out I’m going to address some seepage that I didn’t see before so it’s going to take a little longer than I had hoped.

[ashyers]

Bill,

I have a 2.3 Duratec w/ a T9 and lightened steel flywheel. The clutch is from AP and it's part of the CP5352 family. There are a bunch of different versions w/ different spline arrangements depending on your input shaft. Mine's a -5. Unfortunately there's no P/N visible on the AP pressure plate, but there are 3 offered for that clutch. It's rated for 250 ft-lbs of torque. (Edit: The PP may be a CP5905-1 from comparing Burton's description and a photo I have.)

 

This may help:

 

https://apracing.com/drawings/2018%20Product%20Catalogue/High%20Performance%20Clutch.pdf

 

The clutch is of a more conventional design with a organic lining and no floating pucks. Seems to work pretty well and when we pulled the car apart it didn't exhibit any weird wear from the PO's 7000+ miles.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Andy

Edited July 18, 2020 by ashyers
add info

[Chopd65]

Thanks Andy,

This will be helpful as I gather information.

Bill

[JohnCh]

I connected with AP Racing to help me identify clutch condition. Below are the specifics they provided (note: this is for a Duratec). Looking this information over again, I notice they state the clutch is rated for 7000 rpm. I previously used 7500 rpm redline with no issues, and plan to increase that 500+ rpm with the new engine. Guess I'll see if that creates a problem:

From the numbers provided I can tell you that the driven plate is an AP Racing component

CP5352-5

Ø215mm, spring centre, organic friction linings, Ø1.02x23T spline.

Rimmed retainer plate for increased strength to spring windows

Increase damper springs strength to accept 250lbft torque

High Mu friction linings (0.3mu) to increase torque.

Rated to 7,000 rpm

New clamp thickness = 7.11mm

Minimum worn thickness = 5.6mm

 

Pressure plate # LC03JR 003B is just the cover pressing # used in a number of clutch assembly builds including standard service units produced by Raicam here in the UK. We both use this same Ford pattern pressing, but APR produce the uprated / high clamp / high torque units.

APR Part # CP5905-500 (RED paint code on spring fingers)

Rated to 220lbft

 

-John

[Chopd65]

I wanted to close this out before I started another thread. First off thanks for the help.

I had trouble getting information from AP. They directed me to a web site to find what I needed and they said they didn’t sell AP products.

Right.

Chris T from Sevens and Elans, who originally sold the car and tuned the motor helped me out with the parts and some very helpful hints.

It took months to get it all straightened out, I was busy and had limited time and had to put it on hold for the winter.

 

I got it all back together about a month ago and when we turned the key on the whine of the fuel pump was immediately followed by a splashing sound. The rear fuel line had reached it time limit and split wide open. I ordered a replacement line and fuel filter and waited on the boat to arrive.

I installed those and she fired right up and I went out for a ride to top off with fresh gas and get some miles. I had my wife follow me as a chase vehicle. No issues but when we got back she told me I had no brake lights.

 

After much trouble shooting and cursing I came to find out that despite a previous owner removing the backup(reversing) light the wires still needed to be connected to the transmission or they would blow the brake light fuse. Is this Lucas? Unfortunately, the brass pins that the wires plug into had broken off when we pulled the engine/transmission. I had no idea that needed to come off first. Another boat trip for a small part from Britain. I now have break lights, yeah.

 

I now have a new problem that I start a new thread for.

For those that responded…thanks.