Street datalogging

[sltous]

Well I am once again confused and a little frustrated by the lack of documentation.

 

I have replaced my sureseal connector with an Econoseal 4 way connector, connecting the 5v line to a button on the dash, terminating the 12v and oil pressure lines with rubber plugs and grounding the ground line to the frame.  Subsequently I was able to connect the 5v line via a button to an unused programmable pin input on the MBE 9A4.  I did this based on the SBD motorsport FAQ https://www.sbdmotorsport.co.uk/ufaqs/input-pin-suitability/ but when I probed the output of pin 27 I discovered it is already outputting 5v.

 

I tested:

use of air conditioner compressor input both regular and inverted

use of gear input both regular and inverted plotting voltage on the easimap screen

 

Have I gone through a lot of effort to get a nice 5v signal when all I should have done was pulled the input to ground with my button?  The SBD pinout document specifies all the outputs are LSD (Switch to Ground) is this also true for the inputs and simply undocumented?

[ashyers]

https://www.sbdmotorsport.co.uk/app/uploads/2020/11/MBE9A4-PinoutIssue_F.pdf

 

Looks to me like you're going to have to look at the maps and see how the various programmable functions are set up. I have an older MBE and the documentation in Easymap isn't too bad, but you have to dig a bit.

 

What are you trying to catch while logging?

[sltous]

Hi ashyers,

 

I have been running into a problem where a significant amount of the time my intake spits instead of blipping when I try to blip for a downshift.  I spent yesterday afternoon playing with AIM's math channels and trying to extract the 'bad' blips from the 'good' blips.

[ashyers]

Have you synchronized the throttles and checked to see where the TPS setting is at idle. Since the map's using this setting as a reference a small change here can have significant results. May want to verify the fuel pressure is stable too.

 

Assuming the above stuff is OK, if it's spitting back when snapping the throttle it may be a bit lean. You can try monkeying around with the accel pump function, but I've never had much success with this with a light car. Often if you play around with the base fuel map you can get a nice sharp response. Save the orig map, get the car up to temp. and then do some changes to the "surface" of the map that's used when you're snapping the throttle. You can likely get it working pretty well w/o even driving it, just don't go too rich that will lead to other issues.

 

If you'd like you can send your fuel and ign maps my way and I'll take a look and see if there's anything I can suggest to help.

 

Andy

 

 

[sltous]

2 hours ago, ashyers said:

Have you synchronized the throttles and checked to see where the TPS setting is at idle. Since the map's using this setting as a reference a small change here can have significant results. May want to verify the fuel pressure is stable too.

 

Assuming the above stuff is OK, if it's spitting back when snapping the throttle it may be a bit lean. You can try monkeying around with the accel pump function, but I've never had much success with this with a light car. Often if you play around with the base fuel map you can get a nice sharp response. Save the orig map, get the car up to temp. and then do some changes to the "surface" of the map that's used when you're snapping the throttle. You can likely get it working pretty well w/o even driving it, just don't go too rich that will lead to other issues.

 

If you'd like you can send your fuel and ign maps my way and I'll take a look and see if there's anything I can suggest to help.

 

Andy

 

 

Fuel pressure is through an aeromotive pressure regulator at ~58psi and has looked stable every time I have looked at the gauge.  It is not wired to my ECU so I have not been able to log that, something to consider adding.  There is a secondary surge tank with a high pressure pump so I generally have not spent too much time considering if there are issues with the fueling system.

 

TPS at idle looks stable and correct.

 

I have not checked if the throttles are synchronized.  I can try and find some 6mm rod stock and check.

 

MBE maps sent your way, thanks for the offer.  I have not touched the throttle or fuel maps.

[sltous]

8 hours ago, sltous said:

Well I am once again confused and a little frustrated by the lack of documentation.

 

I have replaced my sureseal connector with an Econoseal 4 way connector, connecting the 5v line to a button on the dash, terminating the 12v and oil pressure lines with rubber plugs and grounding the ground line to the frame.  Subsequently I was able to connect the 5v line via a button to an unused programmable pin input on the MBE 9A4.  I did this based on the SBD motorsport FAQ https://www.sbdmotorsport.co.uk/ufaqs/input-pin-suitability/ but when I probed the output of pin 27 I discovered it is already outputting 5v.

 

I tested:

use of air conditioner compressor input both regular and inverted

use of gear input both regular and inverted plotting voltage on the easimap screen

 

Have I gone through a lot of effort to get a nice 5v signal when all I should have done was pulled the input to ground with my button?  The SBD pinout document specifies all the outputs are LSD (Switch to Ground) is this also true for the inputs and simply undocumented?

 

5 hours ago, ashyers said:

https://www.sbdmotorsport.co.uk/app/uploads/2020/11/MBE9A4-PinoutIssue_F.pdf

 

Looks to me like you're going to have to look at the maps and see how the various programmable functions are set up. I have an older MBE and the documentation in Easymap isn't too bad, but you have to dig a bit.

 

What are you trying to catch while logging?

Thanks to ashyers for the pointers to look through how the various programmable functions are set up, I ended up changing from the push button I had originally planned to use to a toggle switch which is connected to 5V through the normally open pin and GND through the normally closed pin and the ECU 'thinks' I have shifted many gears.  There is no actual gear sensor on the Caterham manual 6 speed (I think, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) and the ECU is not programmed to do anything different in different gears so this should be a very brute force way to trick my way into being able to track weirdnesses through a CAN data channel.

 

[ashyers]

"I have not checked if the throttles are synchronized.  I can try and find some 6mm rod stock and check."

 

I'm confused, what are you doing with the 6mm rod? (Edit: Just realized you must have roller throttle bodies. Is the roller one huge chunk or can you adjust the individual barrels?) I've had good luck with one of these buggers:

 

 

 

I'm going to download the latest version of Easymap. My stuff runs on 5. Assuming that works I'll take a look at your maps.

 

Andy

Edited April 25, 2022 by ashyers

[ashyers]

Maps look reasonable.

 

I'd suggest synchronizing the throttles and setting the idle at 980 RPM and throttle site 1.0. This looks like it was the intent of the person who initially mapped the car judging by the timing table. Then see how things are. If you're still getting a lean pop at snap throttle it's pretty easy do do some small changes to the fuel map that will only affect that area of use.

 

Andy

[MV8]

If you have ports to connect to, a motorcycle carb sync gauge set is about the same price as a unisyn and will let you see them all at the same time for balancing.

[sltous]

No ports.

 

Idle (hot) is around 1100.  At this point TPP is 0%

 

I did some data collection (I know I know I should have synced first) and I'm struggling to find any clear data to show the problem.  There is a clear (if small, around 500RPM) bump in RPM on both good and bad downshifts, lambda drops outside of my narrowband sensor in both scenarios.

 

After finding a carb sync and checking sync is good, possibly reducing idle and maybe adjusting throttle sensor (currently my resting voltage is at 0.36v and my resting throttle site is at 0), options for further testing include: swapping in my wideband innovate lambda setup for more rigorous data collection, upgrading to a much more robust data logging platform (I have my starry eyes pointed at the AIM PDM although that's a lot of $$ and a LOT of wiring for what is essentially a science project), maybe finding expert help.

[sf4018]

Lambda is quite variable during gear changes and transitions, I put in the innovate WB sensor late last year during a fuel cell project, here's the sensor feedback during a run a few months ago...

(8) PBOC Winterfest @ Sebring in a Caterham 420R - YouTube

 

[sltous]

5 hours ago, sf4018 said:

Lambda is quite variable during gear changes and transitions, I put in the innovate WB sensor late last year during a fuel cell project, here's the sensor feedback during a run a few months ago...

(8) PBOC Winterfest @ Sebring in a Caterham 420R - YouTube

 

Thanks sf4018.  I do have the innovate wideband sensor kit available for installation.  It is fitted elsewhere now but the car it is fitted to is in semi-storage.  Tempted to install but not sure I'll learn anything.

[sltous]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:11 AM, ashyers said:

"I have not checked if the throttles are synchronized.  I can try and find some 6mm rod stock and check."

 

I'm confused, what are you doing with the 6mm rod? (Edit: Just realized you must have roller throttle bodies. Is the roller one huge chunk or can you adjust the individual barrels?) I've had good luck with one of these buggers:

 

 

 

I'm going to download the latest version of Easymap. My stuff runs on 5. Assuming that works I'll take a look at your maps.

 

Andy

Andy,

 

I have placed an order for the standard flow rate SK flow rate tool.  I have done some reading and there is guidance to balance the roller barrels with bleed screws at idle. https://www.caterhamlotus7.club/forum/techtalk/balancing-roller-barrel-throttle-bodies This guidance suggests I am looking for relatively low flow rates of ~5kg/hr so this should be an appropriate tool.  Thanks for the advice, I'll have to find a chance to come to visit one of these days, it seems like the place for Bay Area sevens

 

I do note that the Caterham guidance is TPS should be set to ~0.43-0.45V and I am set a good bit lower than this at the moment.

Edited April 28, 2022 by sltous

[ashyers]

Start your car and take  look at the map site I described (TPS site 1.0, RPM site 980 RPM) on the ignition map while the map is live and see where you're landing. If it's not on that site when idling hot the TPS and throttle position need to be adjusted to get there. As far as the lambda, for the problem you describe it's going to be pretty useless. Your going to have to tune it the old fashioned way, just creep up to it and do A-B-A tests.

 

Andy

Quote

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by ashyers

[sltous]

After adjusting what I thought was the idle screw as far out as possible I was able to get to the idle state 980 rpm, TPS site 1 but now my throttle cable is not under any tension.  The cable adjustment is set essentially as long as possible.

 

Looking at the Minister Power site it suggests I might have adjusted the throttle stop and not the idle adjustment http://www.bikerhouse.com/testsite/minister2011/support/roller_barrel_setup_k-seriesr.php, I will need to go review what I did

[sltous]

2 hours ago, sltous said:

After adjusting what I thought was the idle screw as far out as possible I was able to get to the idle state 980 rpm, TPS site 1 but now my throttle cable is not under any tension.  The cable adjustment is set essentially as long as possible.

 

Looking at the Minister Power site it suggests I might have adjusted the throttle stop and not the idle adjustment http://www.bikerhouse.com/testsite/minister2011/support/roller_barrel_setup_k-seriesr.php, I will need to go review what I did

Well, I had the correct idle adjustment screw.  Couldn't come up with anything more clever than either replacing the throttle cable or bending the throttle pedal.  So I bent the throttle pedal.

[sltous]

10 hours ago, ashyers said:

Start your car and take  look at the map site I described (TPS site 1.0, RPM site 980 RPM) on the ignition map while the map is live and see where you're landing. If it's not on that site when idling hot the TPS and throttle position need to be adjusted to get there. As far as the lambda, for the problem you describe it's going to be pretty useless. Your going to have to tune it the old fashioned way, just creep up to it and do A-B-A tests.

 

Andy

 

I adjusted to this point, got the throttle cable adjusted to be able to drive and it was absolutely diabolical.  This may be how the car is "supposed" to be tuned but in my opinion it was not a street-able car.  I think (to be confirmed once my flow meter arrives) that there simply wasn't enough air and by the time I added sufficient throttle for there to be enough air there was a ridiculous excess of fuel. 

 

Taking a page from Caterham initial setup guidance I grabbed a ~6mm drill bit and adjusted the idle back up based on that rough guidance (taking super extra special care not to drop it in ) which placed my idle back around 1000 to 1100RPM and my throttle at state 6, I tuned the TPS back down to throttle state 1 (still a change from the initial setup) and got the car back under control.  I'll see how things are looking once the flowmeter comes in but my initial testing suggested it's an improvement over where I was when I started.

[ashyers]

I wonder if the air bleeds are opened quite a bit leading to the high idle. It will be interpolating at 980 and if you look at the maps it will give an idea of how much. A few hundred rpm should not make a huge difference (I don’t have access to the maps now).

 

Once you get things in sync I can help you get a nice stable idle with some small adjustments.

 

Andy

[sltous]

Took the long way to work this morning, with the 1000-1100 RPM and throttle position state 1 at idle.  Generally went much better, a little gulpy on air but no spitting.  I agree with the idea that maybe the air bleeds are opened too far, I'll check this once the flow meter comes in.  I'll probably either buy or make a much longer 6mm rod (should be relatively easy to turn down from 1/4" stock, precision requirements can't be anything special) so I'm not worried about losing it down the intake and adjust both the resting position of the intake and the flow rate at idle with the bleed screws to try and drop the RPM a touch further without introducing drivability problems.

 

Overall, thanks for the pointer on adjusting throttle position to 1, that did help a lot.

[ashyers]

Glad to hear you're making progress. I think you'll have it dialed in soon.

 

Andy