BrianE Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 On 8/27/2023 at 6:14 PM, IamScotticus said: Just snagged a TRW GMC226 off David Manners Group IamScotticus, just wondering if you received the GMC226 MC and how it worked out for you? I ordered the Morgan one from the eBay seller and got in installed. Unfortunately my pressure bleeder did not make a good seal with the threads and made a small mess of my engine bay, hence I am returning it and will most likely order a TRW Spitfire MC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 4, 2023 Author Share Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) @BrianE No, not yet. What pressure bleeder did you use? Don't they have a cap that will fit? Motive bleeder has a cap for Girling. I'm curious if this is what you tried because that's my plan when I get there. I measured my MC tank opening to be closer to 1.5" than anything listed here, but I suspect the sizes stated are inaccurate e.g. 25mm (1"). Who ever made a 1" neck? Do Spit clutch cylinders have 1" caps? Anyway, before you return something, try selling it on the forum here. I WOULD BUY IT. https://www.motiveproducts.com/collections/adapters-1/products/1123-girling-1-75-id?_pos=30&_fid=38d91d73d&_ss=c This one has a review that says he used this cap on his Spitfire https://www.motiveproducts.com/collections/adapters-1/products/adapters-adapters-import-adapters-adapters-classic-marine-universal?_pos=19&_fid=38d91d73d&_ss=c Edited September 4, 2023 by IamScotticus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianE Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 I used an Eezibleed and the cap I use fits Girling MCs perfectly. The Morgan MC being sold by the eBay seller is not a Girling/TRW/Lockheed MC. It appears whatever mold was used to make the reservoir has enough of a difference from a true Girling one to not allow for an airtight seal. If you are interested in purchasing the MC I think the eBay seller has one remaining or I would be happy to sell you this one. As jbcollier recommended I am going to stick with TRW ones from now on or I will convert to a Tilton. I just want my Cat back on the road! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) I vacuum bleed with a jar and a hand pump (i.e. one-man bleeder type kit). I have never needed to pressure bleed anything. The brake reservoir is not designed to be under pressure so the pressure should be very little. EDIT: My basic system: https://www.ebay.com/itm/125305492277?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D253785%26meid%3D9e75ead8602c427788d174c85f5e4bcf%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D285459057887%26itm%3D125305492277%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuWithLambda85KnnRecallV1V4ItemNrtInQueryAndCassiniVisualRankerAndBertRecall%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A1253054922779e75ead8602c427788d174c85f5e4bcf|enc%3AAQAIAAABYNaJCFP3eaFlNU%2FMPxRY0TCMczVKEUB5MsBytoCwPnd71M08lfrVO4PuTCchnU42KC4W4fZqxBROE%2BM7tSL%2BgZgL1kWiIUBRsEpydVTA61DhOJDUizwNgM7HKYQEqSaBlLrm23B9JcvAMn6AWsg4aCWpCrvRsWxi2cthWme9zixtOIUjcWLVT%2BeRGGi1XVyzQ5oJDpnIAxpGmwrTl4VoFb9AkziqAAwKcUPeIrQ3YijHY0p4%2Bo%2Fhx5bs9b9eXpAy7fy6GC8YNzaqGvRsIdklxNrLFzkCnsQNKA38vLr6N4Bb%2F2LCrP0Frr%2F85JG8Tu9OUWKACksIalHkvE8eGKsXXaXaiOD0KRrvvwSJ%2FCu5h%2BK1pIu57luOH3L9pwGkIjQN%2Fx%2BZjf7msPcVS9NdFWhwD%2F77s3OnHCEgE6buk96lX5tEKXYc2H3FsLUU%2BklyYyXhB3KnnW0HyXT7JwSeue7lw6c%3D|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A2047675 Edited September 4, 2023 by MV8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 Can we have a picture of the Morgan item? Any casting #s? Take a good set of measurements on that tank opening so we can compare. Current ETA is Sep 14. Located today at Lichfield, Staffordshire. MV, I agree with the concept of vacuum bleeding. Its a lot cleaner and I do agree the tank wasn't designed for pressure. On vacuum bleeding l, I have had trouble keeping air from coming in around the nipple threads giving me false air in the drain tube and an uncertainty if any of that air got left in the line after closing. No, I haven't tried any thread sealants. I believe TPFE tape is a no-no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastg Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 (edited) I have both the pressure and the vacuum setups, both work well. I had have on of the old Myvac hand pumped and a compressor type. You can put a little grease on the nipple to get it more air tight seal on the vacuum type. With the vacuum type a little air leaking around the nipple does not change there effectiveness, as long as you keep the vacuum applied. I take the pressure type to the track because it simpler, I have a modified Tilton cap with a quick detach connector that you would use on a compressor, works great. https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html?_br_psugg_q=brake+bleeding+tools https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mvp-0100 Graham Edited September 5, 2023 by fastg Add links 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 9 hours ago, IamScotticus said: Can we have a picture of the Morgan item? Any casting #s? Take a good set of measurements on that tank opening so we can compare. Current ETA is Sep 14. Located today at Lichfield, Staffordshire. MV, I agree with the concept of vacuum bleeding. Its a lot cleaner and I do agree the tank wasn't designed for pressure. On vacuum bleeding l, I have had trouble keeping air from coming in around the nipple threads giving me false air in the drain tube and an uncertainty if any of that air got left in the line after closing. No, I haven't tried any thread sealants. I believe TPFE tape is a no-no. I put a generous loop over the bleeder, fit a box end wrench to the bleeder before attaching the clear hose, mc cover off, hand pump the jar a few times for a few inches of vacuum, then work the wrench back and forth about 45 degrees from lightly closed to the tiny bubble stream sucked into the bleeder seat to the big ones where the applied vacuum level goes away quickly. I don't worry about the tiny bubbles through the bleeder seat as they go directly toward the lower pressure/vacuum. I usually go around at least twice, longest to shortest pipe, checking pedal resistance as I go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 And then there's reverse bleeding... It goes against everything I understand, but it has its fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastg Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 Reverse bleeding sounds like a good thing, the air is naturally wanting to rise in the fluid, we are pushing it down. I have seen a coupe of race car setups which had like a dry brake on the caliper, they had a pressure supplied setup where they could replace all the brake fluid in seconds. I think it's more common in endurance racing. Graham 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianE Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 I had ordered the Morgan MC from the eBay seller and I had mentioned that I installed it and I used a pressure bleeder and since it did not make a good seal with the threads, on the MC, it made a small mess of my engine bay. I thought I would not have an issue returning the MC but apparently I was mistaken. I want to relay the correspondence I have had with the eBay seller. Caveat emptor. Me: I use a pressure bleeder attached to the brake master cylinder to bleed my brakes. The cap I use fits a Girling master cylinder perfectly, unfortunately the cap does not seal well on this particular master cylinder and when I apply pressure it sprays out from underneath the cap and makes a mess. I would be willing to try another MC but if you do not think that will solve the problem I would prefer just returning this one. Thank you. Seller: This is a huge problem. You said it is defective because your pressure bleeder does not fit it. That makes it defective ? BS. Expect a big deduction from your refund for you using it. Me: Thank you for your replies. If you noticed, my initial correspondence was cordial. I never said the master cylinder was defective. Your description states "Dual Line Brake Master Cylinder Morgan 1977 - 1993. Master Cylinder Tag No 66147, with a stepped bore size 17.8mm." I am fully aware this is not a TRW/Girling produced master cylinder but given that it is a reproduction of said master cylinder I would expect it to function similar to an original. The threads for the cap on the master cylinder you sell are minutely undersized from a Girling one hence the issue I am experiencing. I have bled hundreds of Girling MCs and the cap I use fits perfectly on all of them. You can choose to run your business as you see fit. Since you state "Expect a big deduction from your refund for you using it" I most likely will not be returning it at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbcollier Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 Reverse bleeding is used where there is a large height difference between the master (high) and the slaves (low). A good example would be on a motorcycle or scooter. Emptying the master and using a large syringe to push fluid up from the caliper, works very well. Reverse bleeding is not normally required in automotive applications. To fill and bleed a dry system proceed as follows: - first bleed the master cylinder. Best done on the bench but it can be done in situ. Either direct lines/hoses from the outlets back into the reservoir, or hold your fingers over the outlets. Slowly pump the master until no more air comes out. - now install/hook-up the master. Crack the lines at the master after installation to let any air inadvertently admitted to flow out. - open the farthest bleeder and slowly pump ten times (very small reservoirs may only allow 5 pumps) and check the level. - repeat until clear fluid is flowing. Close the bleeder and move to the next. - now repeat the whole cycle but with three pumps or so. If you keep getting air bubbles, the obvious culprit is the master cylinder. Pressure bleeders: - most amateur pressure bleeders do not create much pressure, far less than can be obtained by simply pumping the pedal. - most amateur pressure bleeders do not replenish the reservoir while you bleed. - can be very very messy Vacuum bleeders: - can inadvertently draw air into the system as brake systems rely on pressure to maintain seals. Keep a jug of water handy and immediately rinse down any areas where fluid may have escaped. Some systems have air pockets that are impossible to bleed by normal techniques. For example, some cars have slave cylinders with bleed nipples at the bottom of the cylinder. First you bleed as best as possible. Then you use a pedal jack to apply pressure overnight. This will cause the excess air to be absorbed into the fluid. Then you flush the system with fresh fluid -- otherwise the air would just reappear over time. If you don't know what you are doing when changing a light bulb, the repercussions are minimal if you make mistakes. This is NOT true for brake work. If you are not experienced, get help from someone who is. Learn under their tutelage before attempting brake work by yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Westfield Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 just build your own universal adapter I use this on oddball units that I don't have a spare cap for 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) Alright. sorry this took so long. the MC came in while I had foot surgery (size reduction for better fit in pedal box) so it had to wait two weeks. But the wait was worth it.. MV8 was correct, by all the rough measurements I could make, comparing this new to the old, the TRW Spitfire MC does appear to be a direct replacememt except for the tank and push rod. I am not yet ready to attempt swapping tanks, but even if I don't, this angled tank has enough volume to be usable horizontal. This pin space measurement was taken off my old MC and is being placed on the new. They appear to be close. The other parameters like port space, neck dia, bolt space and length were found copesetic. I will get around to trying tanks and caps later. The spacing is 86mm or 3- 3/8". the tank nipples are 5/16" OD and 3/8" long. No Im not going to take it apart to check bore, etc. I can try to measure the inside of the neck behind the boot, but thats as far as I will go. Another thing, this push rod is capuured behind the circlip. It does swivel on a bearing, backed by spring tension. this may need to be removed to work for the shorter rod the 7 uses. But it could be threaded. I see some are available at Pegasus Edited September 22, 2023 by IamScotticus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianE Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 Hope the foot surgery went well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share Posted September 21, 2023 39 minutes ago, BrianE said: Hope the foot surgery went well! It is a Great toe fusion for arthritis. We will see if my heel-toe improves, 😆 But, yes, doing well, on schedule, on budget. Thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) I couldn't wait any longer... Yes, the cap for the TRW fits the old Girling perfectly. Yep, this fits too The tank threads appear to be about 9 TPI x 1.75" Edited September 21, 2023 by IamScotticus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianE Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 minute ago, IamScotticus said: I couldn't wait any longer... Yes, the cap for the TRW fits the old Girling perfectly. My apologies for not getting the pics posted from the other one. I had it boxed up when I realized I forgot to take pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share Posted September 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, BrianE said: My apologies for not getting the pics posted from the other one. I had it boxed up when I realized I forgot to take pics. Thats alright. This experience isn't just for us, but for the many. At this point, I wouldn't reccomend anything other than this MC. So any comparisons with a MIC aren't of much value here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSXguy Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 (edited) I realize you all have been discussing state-side solutions on this thread, but Paul from Powertrack in the UK stocks a direct replacement unit for the one pictured in the first post. it comes with a threaded shaft/push rod which when used with proper clevis, allows for ajusting to existing pedal. He also stocks many brake components and was able to provide a seal kit when i rebuilt my original 1970s lockheed/AP 3 port MC some time ago. Then later i purchased a new MC (replacement like the one inquired about in this thread). As the new one only has a single port each for rear circuit and front circuit VS my only one which has 2 ports for front circuit and one for rear, i had to do a little rework of the lines. While in there, decided to just run all new stainless brake lines and also added a wilwood proportioning valve on the rear circuit to dial things to suit (drum brakes on rear/discs up front). -Dez Edited September 22, 2023 by NSXguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 22, 2023 Author Share Posted September 22, 2023 (edited) Thanks, Des. This looks like the guys: https://www.powertrackbrakes.co.uk/ Which valve did you go with, and, (sometimes we just find out later), was it really needed? Edited September 22, 2023 by IamScotticus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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