360S S3 "Yellowjacket" Build in Upstate SC

[MV8]

If the fuel line is going to be zip tied to the chassis, I suggest cutting two inch sections of low pressure fuel hose, cut down one side, and slip over the line to isolate the fuel line from the zip tie, chassis, and wiring.

[Yoram]

14 hours ago, MV8 said:

If the fuel line is going to be zip tied to the chassis, I suggest cutting two inch sections of low pressure fuel hose, cut down one side, and slip over the line to isolate the fuel line from the zip tie, chassis, and wiring.

Thanks!  The fuel line comes from Caterham routed and protected inside a corrugated plastic sleeve and zip tied along the way.  All that's left is to plug it to the fuel rail.

 

 

 

[mrmustang]

1 hour ago, Yoram said:

Thanks!  The fuel line comes from Caterham routed and protected inside a corrugated plastic sleeve and zip tied along the way.  All that's left is to plug it to the fuel rail.

 

 

 

 

When building my 2009, I replaced the zip ties with adel clamps.

 

Bill S.

[Yoram]

Engine+Gearbox Mounts - Preparation and Trials

 

Before actually trying to install the engine+gearbox in the chassis you need to make sure that the mounts fit the attachment holes on the chassis, you have all the fasteners and tools to tighten them, and you know what needs to go where when.  You do not tighten any of the joints until the engine+gearbox are in their final correct position.

 

This part took considerably more time and work than anticipated due to, uh... shall we say, design and manufacturing imperfections....

 

Engine mounts:

The engine mount brackets are attached to the respective rubber blocks with single 1/2" hex socket head bolts which thread into sleeves in the rubber blocks.  You want to confirm at this stage that the threads are good.  I discovered that the hex socket head of these bolts is 3/8" (H10 won't fit).  Ordered a hex bit from Amazon.

Next step is install (loosely) the rubber blocks on the chassis rails with 2 bolts each that go through the rails, washers and nyloc nuts below.

Encountered 2 issues:

a) needed to clean out the chassis holes from below (21/64" drill bit)

b) needed to grind the edge of the RH rubber block flange to fix interference with a chassis weld.  Touched up the ground area with black chassis paint pen.

 

before:

 

and after:

 

I then installed loosely the RH engine mount bracket onto its rubber block (seen party in the pic).  Left the LH bracket out as the LH side of the engine block presents several obstacles.  
 

Gearbox mount:

The gearbox mount bolts to the gearbox (two M14 bolts) and to the chassis (four M8 bolts) from below.

First I verified both M14 threads in the gearbox housing accepted both bolts.

 

I then cut out small pieces of the heat shields at the bolt locations and inserted the 4 bolts from above (per advice from Josh R) over the small washers, making sure they are seated directly on the rail, not on the heat shield.  Note 2 rivets on each side between the bolts - I considered adding spacers (washers) between the gearbox mount and chassis to clear the rivets but ended up not doing so as explained below.

 

 

Next I tested the gearbox mount fit and discovered that the holes are about 1.5mm too far apart laterally. Enlarged the front holes and one of the rears on the inside with a Dremel tool (unfortunately I don't have a milling machine) and confirmed fit.  Planned to use the large OD washers over the enlarged holes.

 

 

 

Once I could seat the mount over the bolts I performed trial torquing (20 Nm) with standard (non-nyloc) nuts.

Upon disassembly I found that the mount flanges are riding on the 2 rivets on each side and bending to make contact with the raised rail holes.  Conclusion:  not to use spacers between the rails and flanges due to the flange bending.

 

 

 

Note center of flange bent up/ends bent down due to rivets.

 

 

 

The washers under the nuts got also bent due to the oval and enlarged holes in the flanges -- not acceptable.  Ordered hardened and thicker M8 large washers (24 mm OD, 2 mm thick) from McMaster-Carr.  Ended up using them together with (under) the available small washers (2 washers under each nut) to prevent washer bending.  Intending to show pics of the complete installation in the powertrain install post.

 

 

 

Next Post:  Chassis / Body Prep for Powertrain Install

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Yoram]

57 minutes ago, mrmustang said:

 

When building my 2009, I replaced the zip ties with adel clamps.

 

Bill S.

Great idea, Bill!  Just for the fuel line or for everything?  There is a $hitload of zip-ties on this thing....

[mrmustang]

14 minutes ago, Yoram said:

Great idea, Bill!  Just for the fuel line or for everything?  There is a $hitload of zip-ties on this thing....

I'm thinking for all hard-lines, I remember buying them from a race shop in NJ by the box. For all I know, I might even have a few left in my toolbox today 

 

Bill S.

[Yoram]

11 minutes ago, mrmustang said:

I'm thinking for all hard-lines, I remember buying them from a race shop in NJ by the box. For all I know, I might even have a few left in my toolbox today 

 

Bill S.

You got me thinking... Probably first priority would be for the lines in the tunnel and where they are not directly visible or are exposed to high heat.

Lines running along the round tubing in the front probably not critical?

Edited March 17, 2023 by Yoram

[MV8]

11 hours ago, Yoram said:

Thanks!  The fuel line comes from Caterham routed and protected inside a corrugated plastic sleeve and zip tied along the way.  All that's left is to plug it to the fuel rail.

 

 

 

I thought I was looking at rigid fuel line versus brake line. Like Bill said, rigid should be isolated. If there are no holes for addels, you can zip with split fuel hose like I described.

[Yoram]

Chassis / Body Prep for Engine+Gearbox Install

 

Before starting wrapping and padding I installed the horns.

Used rubber coated foam sleeves to wrap vulnerable frame tubes, protrusions on top of the body edges and the first bottom cross member in the tunnel.

Also covered with foam sleeves the wiring looms and connectors in front of the battery and the master brake cylinder area.

22 mm ID/32 mm OD foam sleeves work well for frame tubes.

Then used thick cardboard (from the gearbox packaging) to cover the front top part of the frame, side walls and edges of the engine bay, battery, and the tops, fronts and edges of the footwells.

Zip-ties are magic for everything....

 

 

 

 

 

 

We are now ready for the install (next post!).

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Yoram

[Yoram]

Engine+Gearbox Install

 

This is quite a big deal in the overall scheme of building a Se7en.

This task took place more than a week ago but I didn't have enough quiet time to post.  So here it is, finally.

This is the first task since the unload and moving the CBU off the crate and onto stands that I engaged help, this time from my good friend and neighbor Mike C.

 

The first two pics show the critical point when the gearbox is held as high as possible in the tunnel while the lower front of the engine is about to clear the frame, just before the "flare".  The crankshaft pulley passed through with no interference once the protective cardboard was moved.  Notice no accessories left on the engine.

 

 

 

The next pic shows one of the most critical potential collision points between the (unprotected) black manifold above the oil filter and the (protected) master cylinder (also seen above).  This gets resolved (nothing broke here!) once the engine is dropped gently into position.

 

 

All in all the powertrain went in without too much trouble. Took us about 2.5 hrs to get it in near final position with the propshaft splines engaged and the three mounts installed finger-tight.  We installed the LH engine mount bracket only when the engine was near final position (the RH one had been installed on the rubber block and swung out of the way ahead of time).  Had to start removing some of the protective cardboard and the gearbox wrap during the "insertion" to get the powertrain all the way into position.  Used floor jack with a large rubber block to support the gearbox in the final stage of the "insertion" to engage the propshaft and install the gearbox mount.  The latter proved a bit more more challenging than expected -- read on.

 

The first "engagement" step and biggest challenge was to maneuver the gearbox end to meet the propshaft end, remove the gearbox output cap, insert the propshaft, know whether the splines engaged, and get it all the way in quickly to not lose too much oil. To keep the gearbox from rotating while twisting the propshaft to engage the splines I installed temporarily the gearshift lever and put the gearbox in gear.  In retrospect not sure this was necessary...  Either way we still lost lots of gear oil.

 

The next two pics show the point just before the propshaft and gearbox contact -- gearbox protective wrap is still on, as is the gearbox shaft cap, both about to be removed.  Gearbox is supported by the floor jack.  The white protective sleeve over the cross bar is also still on and not in the way.

 

View from above:

 

View from below:

 

 

The following pics show the status right after the "insertion":

 

Propshaft engaged:

 

 

At this stage we got both engine mounts bolted finger tight and then slackened off and disconnected the engine hoist, with the gearbox still supported by the floor jack.  The gearbox mount is the last one to bolt in but the first one to torque down as will be described later.

 

Engine in near final position (loose mounts):

 

 

LH Engine Mount:

 

 

RH Engine Mount:

 

 

Gearbox mount:  (a later pic for reference only, after M14 thread fixed; actual status at this stage was only one M14 bolt screwed into the gearbox housing)

 

 

No mount fasteners were tightened or torqued yet at this stage.

Issues (status right after initial install):
1.  Cross-threaded rear mount M14 thread in gearbox housing, seems like only 2 initial coils -- ordered an NES22 thread repair tool. If it wouldn't work would order a Helicoil kit.
2.  Spilled gearbox oil -- ordered 2 liters Liqui-Moly 75W-90 GL-4.

3.  Gearbox very tight against heat shield on LH side.

 

EDIT:   LESSON LEARNED / IN HINDSIGHT...

In hindsight, I think I would have chosen to change the sequence and install the engine+gearbox in the car after the front suspension and before the propshaft and rear axle.
Josh's recommended sequence, with front suspension followed by propshaft, diff and rear axle is based on the idea that once both front and rear wheel ends are installed you can mount all 4 wheels and roll the car around as needed to facilitate engine+gearbox installation.
I found it easy to maneuver the car in the garage on the front wheels and a floor jack with a rubber cushion supporting and "steering" the rear (under the diff in my case, but could have been under a rear frame junction), without the rear wheels mounted.  On the other hand, I am convinced that having the engine+gearbox in place and simply inserting quickly the propshaft into the gearbox instead of maneuvering the engine+gearbox to mate with the propshaft would have been much easier and would have minimized the loss of gearbox oil.

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Yoram

[Yoram]

Buttoning Down the Mounts

 

All the fuss centered on the gearbox mount.  It required fixing the M14 thread in the gearbox aluminum housing and reworking the bracket to nudge the gearbox as far to the right as possible (2-3 mm) to reduce the level of contact with the heat shield on the LH side.
The plan (and actual execution) was to get the gearbox aligned as best as possible, get its mount tightened and torqued first, and then tighten and torque the engine mounts.

 

Thread fix:  Received and used the NES22 tool to clean up the cross-threaded M14 hole in the gearbox housing -- worked perfectly!!  (tool is made in Israel -- not in China!!)

 

 

Gearbox "alignment":  As mentioned before, once the engine+gearbox mounts were all bolted in loosely, I identified the need to shift the gearbox to the right to alleviate very tight fit on the left side.  Leveraging carefully with a padded crawbar against the upper tunnel left rail I concluded that movement is limited by the mount bracket holes, so I decided to enlarge them further (I had already enlarged 3 of them because they wouldn't fit).

I supported the gearbox with the floor jack and removed the bracket.  Ground all 6 holes with a Dremel tool and touched up the holes with black chassis paint.

Since I needed the gearbox nudged to the right, I enlarged the two M14 holes under the gearbox to the right so the bracket can be shifted left relative to the gearbox, and the four oval M8 holes to the left, so the bracket can be shifted right relative to the chassis, each set of holes by about 1-1.5mm for a total of about 2-3mm.

Unfortunately I forgot to take a pic of the reworked bracket and am not in the mood to disassemble it for the 3rd time...

 

Discarded the spring lock washers for the two M14 bolts as found one of them broken upon the above disassembly!

That washer saw just a couple days of static duty under the very light specified torque (30 ft-lb)!!

I decided to use Threadlocker Blue instead (as per an earlier Caterham spec) -- also to gain deeper bolt engagement after the clean-up of the cross thread.  Another benefit of deleting the lock washers is getting the bolt heads to protrude a bit less under the car -- they are the lowest ground clearance point in the middle of the wheelbase besides the gearbox drain plug protective tab.

 

 

 

I also reversed the four M8 bolts connecting the gearbox mount bracket to the chassis from the Josh R. to the Caterham orientation (insert from below) since it is much easier to apply counter-torque solo from below (open spanner instead of hex bit or Allen key).
Started by torqueing the gearbox mount bolts - first the two M14 bolts, biasing the bracket as far to the left as it would go, and then the four M8 to the chassis with my dear friend Stevie leveraging the gearbox (padded crawbar against the top rail) as far to the right as it would go.  Used the hardened oversize washers + regular washers under the bolt heads (2 per nut) over the enlarged holes in the bracket.
Next torqued the engine mounts -- first brackets to engine block, then rubber blocks to chassis, then brackets to rubber blocks.

 

Gearbox in final "aligned" position -- still very tight on the LH side:

 

 

Gearbox mount torqued:  (note two washers under M8 bolts - large black washers are 24mm OD, 2mm thick, hardened, procured from McMaster-Carr)

 

 

Gearbox and mount in side view under car - notice protective tab on left in front of drain plug, and gearbox mount on right with the two M14 bolt heads barely protruding without lock washers.

 

 

LH engine mount torqued:

 

 

 

RH engine mount torqued:

 

 

 

 

Key lesson:  I decided on and fully recommend the following sequence for tightening and torquing the powertrain mounts (starting with all bolts in place finger tight):

1.  Gearbox mount bracket to gearbox housing

2.  Gearbox mount bracket to chassis

3.  Engine mount brackets to engine block

4.  Engine mount rubber blocks to chassis

5.  Engine mount brackets to rubber blocks

 

 

Next posts:  Engine accessories, wiring, gearbox top up

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Yoram

[KnifeySpoony]

I see that one of your engine mount to chassis bolts is longer than the other 3. I thought I was the only one.

[Yoram]

3 minutes ago, KnifeySpoony said:

I see that one of your engine mount to chassis bolts is longer than the other 3. I thought I was the only one.

Yes, I read (I think on Chris Collins' blog) that the longer bolt was intended for a couple ground straps, but later the grounding post location changed to the bulkhead, but the long bolt stayed...

I have yet to get to the chassis grounding step.

[SENC]

great progress, well done!

[IamScotticus]

Thanks for making me buy another tool! lol

Edited March 23, 2023 by IamScotticus

[ralph]

I'm about to attempt an engine install with the diff and propshaft already in place (i.e. out of sequence w/manual).  I notice you mentioned spilling gearbox oil (I'm assuming this is from uncapping the gearbox to connect the prop shaft), and I'm wondering if I shouldn't just tip the engine up and dump a bunch out, add it back after the propshaft is in).  If you had it to do over again, would that seem like a prudent step?

[Yoram]

4 hours ago, ralph said:

I'm about to attempt an engine install with the diff and propshaft already in place (i.e. out of sequence w/manual).  I notice you mentioned spilling gearbox oil (I'm assuming this is from uncapping the gearbox to connect the prop shaft), and I'm wondering if I shouldn't just tip the engine up and dump a bunch out, add it back after the propshaft is in).  If you had it to do over again, would that seem like a prudent step?

Hi Ralph,

 

Sounds like a good idea to me.  Either that way or using the drain plug better than what I did.  The oil I used cost $25/liter so that's nice savings and no uncontrolled spillage.  I would just ensure everything the captured oil may come in contact with is squeaky clean -- esp. the outside of your gearbox and the pan you'd be using to collect the oil.  Also that you have a handy way to siphon or pour the captured oil back into the box.

 

Cheers!

[ralph]

As it turns out, I had it level enough I didn't lose much oil (maybe ~2oz), and the propshaft fitment wasn't too gnarly.  I did yank a couple things off the front of the motor so I could scoot it forward more to make room for it.  The beastly part was getting alignment on the gearbox mount bracket -- there was a 0% chance of all four chassis screws fitting, so dremeled a bit of metal out of the bracket, and aligning the 'business' bolts to get them to actually thread required some brute force prybar tactics, but the motor is in.  If I had to do this again, I think I'd arrange my build space so I could follow the standard sequence (motor/gearbox, then propshaft, then diff), but this way did work in the end.  The manual is ambiguous and/or wrong about several things, so in that sense this step was like any other.  The adventure continues...

[Yoram]

Again I'm incurring a lag between build sessions and posts but I keep an offline journal so we are not relying on my fading memory.

 

This update will cover partial engine dress and wires and the clutch hose.

 

Partial Engine Dress, Wires, Clutch Hose

 

 - Installed starter.  Torqued bolts to 35 Nm per Chris Collins blog (could not find anything in either Caterham guide). Upper bolt impossible to torque from above with my tools.  Ended up torquing from below with short extension and UJ adapter at hex bit.  Attached 2 brown wires from chassis to big post already used for brown wire from engine.

 

 - Installed tensioner.  Torqued by feel (7 Nm per CC - don't have a micro torque wrench).

 - Installed alternator.  I had removed and now reinstalled the 3 bolts which bolt the 2 aluminum brackets to the engine block and torqued to 20 Nm (my guess; no spec handy).  I had also loosened and now retightened the short bolt connecting the alternator to the top bracket.  Never loosened the long bolt (with nut) connecting the alternator to the bottom bracket.

Alternator as removed (with bolts to block secured under electric tape):

 

Alternator installed:

 

 - Installed serpentine belt.

 

Protected the alternator wires running at bottom front of sump with a slit rubber hose (can be seen above), and zip-tied the length already supplied with protective hose to the engine mount bracket.

 

 

 - Attached clutch hydraulic line to master cylinder (banjo fitting).  Torqued by feel.  Tied the clutch hose to the adel clamp of the engine harness at the corner of the head with a short insulating rubber hose.  Took care to route the hose in a way that minimizes the bending and twisting angle at the master cylinder (reduce interference with sealing).

 

 

 

  - Connected the main engine/chassis wiring harness connector and zip-tied the connector body to the bulkhead (black, just below the ECU gray connector under the battery which came connected already).

 

 

Next post will cover gearbox "clean-up".

 

 

 

[Yoram]

26 minutes ago, ralph said:

As it turns out, I had it level enough I didn't lose much oil (maybe ~2oz), and the propshaft fitment wasn't too gnarly.  I did yank a couple things off the front of the motor so I could scoot it forward more to make room for it.  The beastly part was getting alignment on the gearbox mount bracket -- there was a 0% chance of all four chassis screws fitting, so dremeled a bit of metal out of the bracket, and aligning the 'business' bolts to get them to actually thread required some brute force prybar tactics, but the motor is in.  If I had to do this again, I think I'd arrange my build space so I could follow the standard sequence (motor/gearbox, then propshaft, then diff), but this way did work in the end.  The manual is ambiguous and/or wrong about several things, so in that sense this step was like any other.  The adventure continues...

 

Congratulations!  A few posts above you will find similar challenges re gearbox mount...

Sounds like you had, uh, easier mating of the gearbox to the propshaft. I weighed the full and used bottle and calculated that I wasted over 6 oz. I would still top it off.

In retrospect I think I would have installed the engine+gearbox first, then the propshaft and diff.  The argument for doing it the way we both did is to be able to have a "rolling chassis" before the engine goes in to make it easier to roll the chassis on the wheels for the installation.  As I described in one of my posts, I actually needed to do this but did not use the rear wheels - just the fronts with a floor jack under the diff.  Could have had the jack under a chassis rear cross member without the diff or any of the rear axle in place.  Anyhow, all is good...

 

Likely the best source for Se7en build guidance is Chris Collins' blog:

https://caterham420detailedbuildblog.co.uk/

I am referring to it quite a bit.

 

Cheers.