MichaelD Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 "Wings, not the Brit deff, should be prohibited in all classes." Do you mean Clam Shells? If so, why? Clam shell front fenders (wings) were standard issue on the Lotus Seven and more importantly, over time came to symbolize the Seven. These are also the fenders that are approved in EP by the SCCA. Michael D.
yellowss7 Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 Michael, I think he means, rear overhead Wings that apply downforce. I'm sure everybody loves clams. Tom
slngsht Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 "Wings, not the Brit deff, should be prohibited in all classes." Do you mean Clam Shells? If so, why? Clam shell front fenders (wings) were standard issue on the Lotus Seven and more importantly, over time came to symbolize the Seven. These are also the fenders that are approved in EP by the SCCA. Michael D. I think you're both saying the same thing. Clamshells OK, Fast and Furious, not OK http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/rofl.gif
slngsht Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 The windshield is optional but if present must be flat DOT approved glass. If optional, then how about we don't have any rules for it. It doesn't make sense to allow windshields, and no windshield, but exclude these: http://members.rennlist.com/tweedt/s2khoodup.jpg
slngsht Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 I posted a link at californiaCaterhamClub... Hopefully we'll get some viewpoints and input from there also.
MichaelD Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 Steve, Your experience is almost exactly the same as mine. Right down to the wheels and tires. I stepped up to CR500 wheels and tires and cut their advantage to three seconds. Then one day a buddy gave me his 13x10 slicks to try. It was like giving drugs to a junkie. I was hooked. Now if I could only learn how to drive http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/smile5.gif MichaelD
chetcpo Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 I could be wrong but after reading this thread, and the proposed "new rules" it seems to me that some of you are looking to get Locost or home-built cars out of your class. Am I mistaken?
slngsht Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 I could be wrong but after reading this thread, and the proposed "new rules" it seems to me that some of you are looking to get Locost or home-built cars out of your class. Am I mistaken? I don't think that's the case at all. The objective is to get the traditional sevens (including traditional locosts) a place where they can compete. Right now, a miata based locost is in the same class as a purpose built autox machine. Even if you want to run DOT tires, and the other guy is running slicks.
slngsht Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 If you build a locost as the ultimate no compromise autocrosser, D Mod is still there for the taking.
bball7754 Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 Michael - Ran the last autox of the season Sunday, and the formula held true. The 2 other Sevens ran 39.135 and 39.379, while my best time was 43.185. As I said earlier, I'm a casual novice (this was my seventh autox ever, 3rd this season), but confess that the number of available classes is confusing. I've spent time looking at the rule book, and "Lotus 7, 7A" is listed under both C Stock and Class A Street Prepared. Interestingly, Class D Prepared has both "Lotus 7, 7A (948cc, 997cc,1098cc)" listed, as well as "Super Seven (1340cc, 1498cc)". Most, if not all, of the C Stock Miatas were running Kumho Ecsta V710 - those 2 grooves running around the tire mean it's not a slick? Winning time in C Stock was 39.835, followed by a low 40 and a low 41. Not sure anyone would care if I tried to run C Stock! Definitely agree it comes down to the driver. I guess I just would like to have some way of knowing that I'm getting better - or not. I think it's hard to do that in autox, unless multiple people drive the same car. But when there is such a disparity in the cars in your class, it further muddies the water in terms of measuring how your driving is progressing. Just some random random thoughts. But I do wonder what an LSD and a set of Kumhos on my 14" rims would do. http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/smile5.gif Steve
powderbrake Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 I surely hope this discussion as to "What is a Seven" is for the purpose of advising SCCA as to classes, and does not spill over into "What is a Seven as it relates to USA7s" They are all Sevens.... A Fable; Three sevens are parked next to each other, the first one, a stock Lotus series 1. The second is a Caterham with slick Panasports wheels and Khumos with two little grooves, the third is a Viking with 12inch wide Hoosier slicks, and a 440 RWHP 3 rotor turbo wankel and a carbon fibre body with lots of downforce. The first guys thinks to himself...."If only I had those Khumos, I might be able to beat him". The second guy thinks to himself..." If only I had those Hoosiers and that engine, I might be able to beat him" The third guy might be thinking..."It would be neat to have an original Series 1 Lotus."
chetcpo Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 I could be wrong but after reading this thread, and the proposed "new rules" it seems to me that some of you are looking to get Locost or home-built cars out of your class. Am I mistaken? I don't think that's the case at all. The objective is to get the traditional sevens (including traditional locosts) a place where they can compete. Right now, a miata based locost is in the same class as a purpose built autox machine. Even if you want to run DOT tires, and the other guy is running slicks. I think I see where you are going with this, but truthfully I have no delusions that the SEB would permit me to run a car I built in my garage in a stock or street prepared class. It would be nice, but really isn't realistic based on what I know about the SCCA. The current residents in these "stockish" classes would be at my door with pitchforks, shovels, and other pointy ended thingys.
slngsht Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 I think I see where you are going with this, but truthfully I have no delusions that the SEB would permit me to run a car I built in my garage in a stock or street prepared class. It would be nice, but really isn't realistic based on what I know about the SCCA. The current residents in these "stockish" classes would be at my door with pitchforks, shovels, and other pointy ended thingys. I totally agree with the pitchforks comment http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/lol.gif That's the pickle we're in. As R1 mentioned on locostusa.com, it'd be ideal to fit in some prepared class, but honestly, who would want a bunch of Sevens ganging up on their class at the nationals? The alternative is a new class. I think everyone knows this is going to be an uphill battle (whether it's a reclassification or a new class), but if we don't even try, there won't be a better place for normal street sevens to run. We should work together to at least come up with a well worded sensible solution to present, with signatures behind it. I don't know how this process works. Perhaps someone with insight into dealing with SCCA can chime in.
slngsht Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 I surely hope this discussion as to "What is a Seven" is for the purpose of advising SCCA as to classes, and does not spill over into "What is a Seven as it relates to USA7s" They are all Sevens.... A Fable; Three sevens are parked next to each other, the first one, a stock Lotus series 1. The second is a Caterham with slick Panasports wheels and Khumos with two little grooves, the third is a Viking with 12inch wide Hoosier slicks, and a 440 RWHP 3 rotor turbo wankel and a carbon fibre body with lots of downforce. The first guys thinks to himself...."If only I had those Khumos, I might be able to beat him". The second guy thinks to himself..." If only I had those Hoosiers and that engine, I might be able to beat him" The third guy might be thinking..."It would be neat to have an original Series 1 Lotus." http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/rofl.gif How true! Agreed - the scope here is only to define areas where sevens from mild to wild can run competitively within SCCA Solo II classes.
MichaelD Posted October 31, 2006 Author Posted October 31, 2006 FWIW: First: This thread was created to discuss, in a Sevens site, what options we may have in Autocrossing with the SCCA. The current classing structure is not all that friendly to the basic Seven. It seems to be headed to custom built one ofs. Second: DM is a Modified class. The rules keep changing to accomodate those that wish to build their own car to their own specifications without regard to any standard. That's fine if that is what you want to do. It is a modified class. This is the class for Locost and other one-ofs. Third: Many of us do not feel we have modified cars and would like the opportunity to run in another class. That is what we are trying to accomplish. I think there are enough of us that autocross. But how many of you would show up at Nationals is another question. Maybe we should find out before we have an exercise in futility. When I look at the low number of people participating in this thread it, I wonder. It doesn't seem to be very well represented. More comments may lead to a better representation of ideas. I am printing all of the comments to this thread for reference. As soon as I get the time I will begin to combine the ideas into a suggestion for further discussion.
MichaelD Posted October 31, 2006 Author Posted October 31, 2006 None of us know the process. But we all need to try. The more imput we have the more likely we can come up with an acceptable plan. If there is a way to include locosts that would be even better. We could start with the specs from the current Caterham (since they are readily available to all on the internet) Seven and say you can not be any smaller that that. You can be longer, wider, higher or heavier. But what about suspension, fenders, steering, aero devices, brakes, tops, hoods etc.? I will try to review all the notes and compile a list covering all aspects that I can think of? Then you can all chew it up and offer improvements. Michael D.
chetcpo Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 Here's a problem I see. If the goal is for a class where you can show up in a stock Caterham and compete against others in stock trim that would make it a "stock" class. (I know, Duh-huh, bear with me) Call it Seven stock, whatever. The SCCA permits race compound tires and damper changes etc. in stock classes so your Caterham on street tires is still going to be an underdog. Your best bet may be to lobby to have them included in a street tire class like STS2. STS2 is a class for 2 seaters with 1.9 liters or less. Assuming of course your goal is to keep them on street tires for those who like "to run what ya brung." chetcpo2006-10-31 10:00:40
slngsht Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 Here's a problem I see. If the goal is for a class where you can show up in a stock Caterham and compete against others in stock trim that would make it a "stock" class. (I know, Duh-huh, bear with me) Call it Seven stock, whatever. The SCCA permits race compound tires and damper changes etc. in stock classes so your Caterham on street tires is still going to be an underdog. Your best bet may be to lobby to have them included in a street tire class like STS2. STS2 is a class for 2 seaters with 1.9 liters or less. Assuming of course your goal is to keep them on street tires for those who like "to run what ya brung." chetcpo, carrying a set of wheels with slicks is probably within most folk's reasonable limits. Again, that's no different if you want to compete in a miata. Most stock folks draw the line somewhere before slapping an iron board wing in the back http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/biggrin5.gif STS2 may be an option. I'm looking at the rules >here, and it's difficult to figure out why something is not allowed in STS2. For example all Triumphs are excluded http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/images/emoticons/confused5.gif, as is Honda CRX. MichaelD, is there a published process and guidelines SCCA follows in reviewing vehicle classifications? I'm totally ignorant regarding the process here.
Locostdude Posted November 1, 2006 Posted November 1, 2006 This is the car that was protested. http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/fia289/IMG_1993.jpg Interesting discussion. What this photo does not show is the 330 pound steel plate that is bolted to the bottom of this car to bring the weight up to 1775 pounds. That's 350 pounds over D mod minimum weight. Also, the transmission was broken so the whole event was run in high gear, starts and all. The protested car was second in D Mod, and second in E mod, with no changes except driver. This car has been in develoment for 35 years. One more thing. The motor is stock except for the after market cams. Del Long
Al N. Posted November 1, 2006 Posted November 1, 2006 Holy crap...Del Long is among us. I've read about you. Welcome to the forum Del.-Al
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