Building a new Seven

[manik]

Tom,

 

True dat!

 

For most people, I think a stock Duratec block and head with throttle bodies and a fairly standard non-Ford ECU system will comfortably put out ~175HP. But you also have to do a few add-ons to the engine to make it work properly in a RWD application. Not the least of which is a low-line sump and water rail.

 

I think you will find that the advantages an alloy Duratec engine provide over a Zetec more than make up for any premium you might pay. Not to mention you can use a Mazda Miata 5-speed gearbox with one (and you only have to make a small modification to the bellhousing to get the starter to fit).

 

 

tom

 

 

Thanks Sean. A 130hp engine for a grand is a good deal. I'm sure it could be loaded up with new Thottlebodies, hotter cams some porting, etc. for several additional grand.

 

You know the answer to the old question. "How much Horsepower can I get out of this engine?" Answer "How much money do you have to spend?"

 

Tom

[jturrell]

Sorry - when I said Duratecs are cheap, I was referring to the "bare" duratec required by the Caterham kits. I was advised by Caterham USA that they could be purchased new from Ford for around $2500. Caterham supplies the ancilliaries with the R300/400/500 kit, so all you need is the "bare" engine. It's really the ancilliary package that gets you the additional horsepower (new cam, throttle bodies, etc).

 

The Cosworth engines are definitely more expensive, but they have uprated internals, etc.

 

Not sure how Birkin packages ancilliaries.

 

Regarding the Elite transmissions - I know they had some issues, but also read that they had been addressed. I'll need to do some additional research - I appreciate the reference to the Plano shop. The Quaife is just so expensive.

 

Back to the original subject - I'd go with a Duratec. Motorcycle engines are neat, but you will not get the same longevity once you put one in a car.

[JohnCh]

What does Caterham charge for the various installation packages for the Duratec?

[jturrell]

I'm not sure what they charge for the installation packages alone, as they're included in the price of the kit. So if you see an R400 kit (listed at $47k and change on their website), that includes the 210hp ancilliary package. The R300 has ancilliaries that produce 175hp. The R500 has ancilliaries that produce 263hp. With all three kits, the customer supplies the bare 2.0 liter duratec (and transmission) and everything else comes with the kit.

[DB6]

JT,

so do you send them your basic engine and they mod it to suit or do they just send you bolt ons for you to do yourself,I see on the site they do not mention what is included to get that level of performance, just call it "installation parts and ancillaries".

[scannon]

I'm not sure what they charge for the installation packages alone, as they're included in the price of the kit. So if you see an R400 kit (listed at $47k and change on their website), that includes the 210hp ancilliary package. The R300 has ancilliaries that produce 175hp. The R500 has ancilliaries that produce 263hp. With all three kits, the customer supplies the bare 2.0 liter duratec (and transmission) and everything else comes with the kit.

 

I don't think the ancillaries are going to produce 263 hp from a 2.0 duratec. That kind of hp in a duratec is way over $10k from Cosworth and includes internal parts as well as headwork, throttle bodies and so on.

 

I had a conversation with Ben at Caterham USA while they were working on getting Ford to sell the "bare" engines to CC customers. Ford leaves off the oil pan and some other items that would normally be removed and replaced before installation and Caterham supplies those items as the ancillaries. The customer goes to his Ford dealer with a part number and orders his engine. Essentially a partially stripped zetec or duratec. It is then up to the customer to build it up to whatever hp he desires whether that is a DIY project or sending it to or buying it complete from Cosworth.

 

This is part of what was needed to allow CC and RMSC merge into one business. Most, if not all states require a kit car to have the engine purchased from two seperate businesses. Otherwise they would consider it a manufactured car and it would have to meet all the safety and smog standards.

 

Skip

[jturrell]

I guess it makes sense that the R500 would require some extra engine work, etc. I was given the impression that the R400 was all bolt-ons, including cams - something a DIY'er could accomplish. An R500 isn't in my price range, so I haven't looked into it all that closely.

[DB6]

Skip,

The exact same point that I raised earlier, how do you go from @100 hp to @260hp without detailing it?

 

I find Caterham USA confusing to say the least,it is vague; the old web site for the old Rocky site has way more info.It would be nice to see at least some more info partic at the prices they are asking.

 

 

So will they assemble a complete car with engine if you are willing to pay?

 

Is a Caterham classed as a kit car in the USA?

 

Is Caterham USA now the main dealer with distributors across the USA, I notice a lot of the old outlets are gone.

 

Regards

 

David

 

PS. The odd thing is, I guess, that any one in the kit car biz could set up a "seperate company" to buy then re-sell an engine." to buy then re-sell an engine.

Edited March 8, 2009 by DB6

[Alaskossie]

As a point of clarification, the 2.3 Duratec in the R500 Caterham produces a claimed 263 hp in the UK on 98 octane (ron measurement) gasoline. In the US, the same basic tuned engine produces 250 hp on 91 or 92 octane (r+m/2 measurement) gasoline.

 

Cosworth UK used to be the R500 (and earlier Caterham CSR) engine builder, but some other company (I forget who) is building the engines for Caterham UK now.

 

I bought my Caterham S3 kit through Ben at RMSC in late 2006, but of course had to source the engine separately. I got the 250 hp 2.3 Duratec engine directly from Cosworth USA. I wanted a built engine from a supplier already in the US, so there would be no possible import hassle with EPA/DOT. I also wanted a known engine builder that would stand behind the engine, and Cosworth already has, when some unexpected corrosion problems needed to be corrected.

 

It would of course be possible for Caterham USA to establish or incorporate its own "separate" engine builder/supplier to provide the engines for their kits. But the Feds might very well view this as a sham distinction, intended just to claim on paper that the engine was sourced separately, from a "separate" company, in order to evade the federal "car manufacturer" regulations.

 

The risk isn't worth it. If the buyer has to make his own deal with Ford or Cosworth, there is no question but that Caterham USA is supplying only the kit, not the engine.

 

We as Seven owners are just darn lucky to have this generous interpretation of the regulations. Without it, there would probably be no post-1969 Westfields, Birkins, or Caterhams in the US.

[DB6]

Alask,

I understand your points and respect your legal observations, however I stand by my feelings.

David

[scannon]

DB6,

 

I can't speak for Caterham USA but I do believe they will assemble your kit and install the engine you purchased elsewhere or you can DIY or have another shop do it. The big distinction is that the kit and engine are not sourced from the same business entity.

 

In Colorado, I was required to provide documentation for the origin of the kit, the origin of the engine and the transmission. They even wanted to know who assembled the car. I *think* this requirement is the same for all of the USA but I don't know that for sure. In Colorado it is the only way to get relief from the DOT and EPA requirements.

 

Colorado passed a law exempting kit cars from emissions inspections just in time for me to register my car although the county I live in doesn't have emissions requirements. I could have licensed it with no emission equipment but I chose to run a catalytic converter.

 

Caterham USA was the distributor for all Caterham kits coming into the USA. RMSC was the Colorado dealer for Caterham. Caterham USA is now both the national distributor and the Colorado dealer for Caterham.

 

Almost anyone could be a Caterham dealer. The dealer I bought my car from was in Arizona and he told me that by buying three kits at one time, he became a dealer. It didn't work out for him and that's why I got such a great deal when I bought his last car. Mopho's Mr. Orange came from the same dealer. I'm sorry but not surprised to hear that other dealers are also out of business.

 

Skip

[bsimon]

One thing to note here in regards to the R500; The R500 never had a Cosworth engine in it. CC used another supplier since the inception of the Duratec R500. (Caterham Powertrain ?) The difference in HP has to do with the higher RPM it achieves through it's short stroke. It's only a 2.0 liter engine.

 

I don't know how or what Caterham is supplying for engines for the R500 in the US market.

[Alaskossie]

Bob,

 

You're right (when are you NOT right -- generally speaking, of course??.......).

 

It is the power difference between Caterham's CSR Cosworth 2.3 in UK at 260 hp, and the Cosworth USA-supplied 2.3 engine at 250 hp, that can apparently be attributed to the 98 (ron) octane gasoline in UK; I believe the two engines are identical internally.

 

I erred in comparing the Cosworth-USA Duratec 2.3 and the Caterham R500 engine power output on the basis of different octane gasoline.

 

I believe the CSR was the latest (last?) Caterham to use a Cosworth-Ford Duratec engine, a 2.3. I had forgotten that the R500 engine is a 2.0, not a 2.3, and that it was not around when the CSR was introduced.

 

Caterham claims 260 hp for the 2.3 in the CSR, at 7500 rpm. Interestingly, the Caterham R500 2.0 at 263 claimed hp is almost the same power as the CSR, but at 8500 rpm.

 

The difference in torque is more striking: The Cosworth 2.3 in the CSR has 200 lb./ft. at 6200 rpm, while the 2.0 Duratec in the R500 has 177 lb./ft. at 7200 rpm.

 

Guess it should be evident which one would probably be more usable as a road-going car....

[bsimon]

Not sure where the term originated, but I've heard it on numerous occasions;

 

"there's no substitute for cubic inches."

[scannon]

Not sure where the term originated, but I've heard it on numerous occasions;

 

"there's no substitute for cubic inches."

 

That comes from the days before turbos and superchargers became common in racing.

 

Consider the 1.5 liter F1 qualifying engines of long ago that were making 1,500 HP while race engines were making 900 hp, one of many examples of substituting forced induction for cubic inches.

 

Skip

[DB6]

As a point of clarification, the 2.3 Duratec in the R500 Caterham produces a claimed 263 hp in the UK on 98 octane (ron measurement) gasoline. In the US, the same basic tuned engine produces 250 hp on 91 or 92 octane (r+m/2 measurement) gasoline.

 

Cosworth UK used to be the R500 (and earlier Caterham CSR) engine builder, but some other company (I forget who) is building the engines for Caterham UK now.

 

I bought my Caterham S3 kit through Ben at RMSC in late 2006, but of course had to source the engine separately. I got the 250 hp 2.3 Duratec engine directly from Cosworth USA. I wanted a built engine from a supplier already in the US, so there would be no possible import hassle with EPA/DOT. I also wanted a known engine builder that would stand behind the engine, and Cosworth already has, when some unexpected corrosion problems needed to be corrected.

 

It would of course be possible for Caterham USA to establish or incorporate its own "separate" engine builder/supplier to provide the engines for their kits. But the Feds might very well view this as a sham distinction, intended just to claim on paper that the engine was sourced separately, from a "separate" company, in order to evade the federal "car manufacturer" regulations.

 

The risk isn't worth it. If the buyer has to make his own deal with Ford or Cosworth, there is no question but that Caterham USA is supplying only the kit, not the engine.

 

We as Seven owners are just darn lucky to have this generous interpretation of the regulations. Without it, there would probably be no post-1969 Westfields, Birkins, or Caterhams in the US.

 

Yet Westfield offers engines and totally assembled cars ready to drive off in:

http://www.flyinmiata.com/westfield/turn-key.php

[Taber10]

DB6,

I'm afraid your point is not well made: I "drove off" in a fully assembled car from RMSC, Inc. in late Oct 2007. The issue is not in "driving off" in a fully assembled car, but the subsequent REGISTRATION of that car for legal road use. In order to assemble a "kit car" in the US, you must be able to "prove" that you sourced some major components separately, in order to qualify for special construction registration, and not be forced to meet all of the requirements that an auto manufacturer would have to meet. Since the current law does not specify how much of the assembly you must personally perform to slip into the special construction category, all that is required is that you can prove you assembled it from separate parts. By Caterham USA and RMSC, Inc. or currently Caterham USA and Ford selling you separate parts, you are more easily able to prove that you put together a kit. IF another manufacturer sold you a complete vehicle, he would be doing you no favors. You might recognize that only when you tried to legally register it for the road in your home state.

 

Does that clarify anything?

 

Taber

[jlumba81]

Hello, I been lurking for a few months and decided to finally register. I've been wanting to buy a caterham for a while and finally got some information from Caterham USA. This is taken from an email I recieved today.

 

Engine: The kit includes all of the ancillaries and installation parts for the engine. The kit comes with: sump, flywheel, clutch, starter motor, alternator, intake manifold, injectors, fuel rail, serp. belt, exhaust manifold, wiring harness, ECU, all sensors and gaskets required (there is probably more, but I can’t remember it all off hand).

 

2.0L Ford Duratec Engine (new from Ford): ~$2,800 (used ~$800)

Caterham 6-spd transmission (new from Caterham or Red Line Components): £2,450+shipping (~$4,000)

 

Due to the current exchange rate we are able to offer some significant discounts. In order to receive the exchange rate discount we require payment in full upfront (as opposed to the deposit system). On a kit like specified out above we can offer $3,500 off the listed retail price. Keep in mind that there will be some domestic delivery charge, typically in the range of $700.

 

Roadsport SV 210 $47,602.00

Black Pack 506.00

Momo steering wheel w. Q.R. 452.00

4-Point road harnesses 92.00

Spare wheel and tire 586.00

Push button start 64.00

Limited slip differential 1,353.00

Kit Total (less domestic delivery) $50,655.00

Edited March 9, 2009 by jlumba81
Forgot to add the specs for the kit

[jlumba81]

They also sent me an attachment too.

 

CATERHAM USA, INC

 

 

 

 

ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION SOURCING INFORMATION

 

 

 

1212 west custer place • denver, co • 80223-2319

Phone: 303-765-0247 • Fax: 303-274-0875

 

 

 

Engine:

2.0L Ford Duratec

8S4Z6007B: Engine – 2.0L Ford Duratec – “Field Dress”

-All Roadsport and Superlight models include all the installation and ancillary parts for the 2.0L Duratec engine. This parts number is for a “Field Dress” engine which includes some redundant parts. At this time a true “long block” engine assembly is not available. Please be aware that there is a “core” charge.

-Available from your local Ford dealer parts department. We source our engines from GO - Courtesy Ford. Phone: 303.738.4301. Lead time 4 days

-List: $3,489.39 -Core $800.00

Transmissions:

Ford T-9 5-spd

36G003B: Gearbox – 5 Speed – Duratec

-This is the same T-9 transmission that has been used for years aside from a few minor changes. The nose piece is different to work with the Duratec bell housing/slave cylinder installation.

-Available through the Caterham Parts Department (Tony Mills: tonym@caterham.co.uk ph: 011.44.1322.625.801) and other sources.

-Retail: £1,000.00 + shipping

Ford T-9 5-spd, long 1st gear

SOP (special order product): Gearbox – 5 Speed – Duratec - Long 1st Gear

-Identical to the std. 5-spd above, but with a taller first gear ratio.

-Available through the Caterham Parts Department (Tony Mills: tonym@caterham.co.uk ph: 011.44.1322.625.801) and other sources.

-Retail: £1,145.00 + shipping

Caterham 6-spd

70000CSR: Gearbox – 6 speed – Duratec

-This transmission is similar to the 6-spd units we have been using for years. The nose piece is machined differently to fit the Duratec bell housing/clutch slave cylinder (the same as the CSR 6-spd).

-Available through the Caterham Parts Department (Tony Mills: tonym@caterham.co.uk ph: 011.44.1322.625.801).

-Retail: £2,450.00 + shipping

Caterham 6-spd sequential

67G003B(ST/CUT): Gearbox – 6 Speed – Sequential

-For use with Caterham Superlight R500. This transmission has straight cut gears which make it very loud, but incredibly strong.

-Available through the Caterham Parts Department (Tony Mills: tonym@caterham.co.uk ph: 011.44.1322.625.801).

-Retail: £5,124.25 + shipping

 

 

For customers who do not want to do the engine work, Caterham USA offers a competitively priced “Engine Dressing” service, call for information.

[DB6]

DB6,

I'm afraid your point is not well made: I "drove off" in a fully assembled car from RMSC, Inc. in late Oct 2007. The issue is not in "driving off" in a fully assembled car, but the subsequent REGISTRATION of that car for legal road use. In order to assemble a "kit car" in the US, you must be able to "prove" that you sourced some major components separately, in order to qualify for special construction registration, and not be forced to meet all of the requirements that an auto manufacturer would have to meet. Since the current law does not specify how much of the assembly you must personally perform to slip into the special construction category, all that is required is that you can prove you assembled it from separate parts. By Caterham USA and RMSC, Inc. or currently Caterham USA and Ford selling you separate parts, you are more easily able to prove that you put together a kit. IF another manufacturer sold you a complete vehicle, he would be doing you no favors. You might recognize that only when you tried to legally register it for the road in your home state.

 

Does that clarify anything?

 

Taber

 

 

I was not really trying to make any point, the situation is just confusing to me(and I am sure many others).The issues I brought up were with regard to Aloskies points about the seperation of engine and car by the dealer/maker when this seems not always to be so.

I understand there can be problems (varying from state to state ) with the registration of a "new" 7,however I do not think these are always registered as kit cars.

Then too, it seems some makers/dealers offer many diferent permetations and optional levels of assembly and finish,engine choices ,etc etc.

Edited March 9, 2009 by DB6