scannon Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Is it or isn't it torture? Think you could last 15 seconds without telling them whatever they want to hear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 hell no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davemk1 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 W. and Rummy said it wasn't so it must not be. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDrye Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Jack Bauer could go for hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestTexasS2K Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Chuck Norris could go for months! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davemk1 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 W. wouldn't lasted as long as that reporter did. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slngsht Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Chuck Norris could go for months! You can't waterboard Chuck Norris. Under his beard, there is another fist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderbrake Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 It's extreme psychological effects are well demonstrated in the video. Is it torture? For my money, no. Would I want to undergo it, heck no. But the military does this to our own troops so they get a chance to experience it, and understand what is happening to them, just as they put our own troops though tear gas training. Does that mean we torture our troops? The word torture has been thrown around rather carelesly. I don't have a definition, but I believe torture involves physical pain, and damage to the body. Is damage to the psyche torture? possibly, but it takes more than 15 seconds to damage a person psychologically. John McCain underwent tortue. He can't lift his arms because of being hung from ropes in the POW facility, and with good reason is the major proponent of the anti-torture movement....BUT he has said, in the ticking time bomb situation, we must do whatever is necessary. The torture controversy is currently very chic. Remember the use of waterboarding was immediately after 911. When the population is in a particular state of mind, it makes different decisions. For example, swine flu. A trivial flu bug, ( apologies to those who got it or died from it, for them it wasn't trivial) , with the help of the 24 hour news cycle and an administration taking political advantage of the situation, the situation was blown all out of proportion. Spanish flu killed 30,000 people. Swine flu only killed 6, yet the President authorized $1.5 Billion to fight it. In a few weeks it will be forgotten, yet if a politician had stood up and said...Stop this nonsense !!!, his constituents would have lynched him. Things must be taken in context. Retroactively rewriting history only works for a short time, as the truth will out, Nancy Pelosi nonwithstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athens7 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Well spoken, Jerry. The torture debate aside (seeking to avoid political hot button debate threads-yes, Mazda, I read the rules:D), I believe we live in a country with a population/government (we get what we ask for) that is very reactive, combined with a short attention span. Regardless of the issue, the result is most likely poorly reasoned, short term decision making, with little or no regard for the long term consequences. Unfortunately, as my CPA is fond of saying, "It's a lot easier to get in to something than it is to get out of something", and the price we as a country will pay down the road for this type of behavior is potentially very high. I was taught when you are angry, take some time to calm down before you respond, as your response will be more rational and will be less likely to cause regret. It's funny how we as adults often forget the lessons our parents taught us as children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoPho Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) Is damage to the psyche torture? possibly, but it takes more than 15 seconds to damage a person psychologically. Waterboarding Used 266 Times on 2 Suspects The C.I.A. officers used waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah, according to a 2005 Justice Department legal memorandum. Abu Zubaydah has been described as a Qaeda operative. A former C.I.A. officer, John Kiriakou, told ABC News and other news media organizations in 2007 that Abu Zubaydah had undergone waterboarding for only 35 seconds before agreeing to tell everything he knew. The 2005 memo also says that the C.I.A. used waterboarding 183 times in March 2003 against Khalid Shaikh Mohammed A little more than 15 seconds don't you think? The guy in the above video didn't even make 5 seconds. And Jerry, do you think it would be ok for our enemies to use this technique on our troops? Personally, I am conflicted on the issue, but it seems to me that a lot of American foreign policy has been "do as I say, not as I do" over the years and then we wonder why these people hate us I'd venture a guess that these harsh techniques won't stop, and that the administrations tactic here is [intentionally] more about appearances to the rest of the world than actual policy The torture controversy is currently very chic. Remember the use of waterboarding was immediately after 911. When the population is in a particular state of mind, it makes different decisions. For example, swine flu. A trivial flu bug, ( apologies to those who got it or died from it, for them it wasn't trivial) , with the help of the 24 hour news cycle and an administration taking political advantage of the situation, the situation was blown all out of proportion. Spanish flu killed 30,000 people. Swine flu only killed 6, yet the President authorized $1.5 Billion to fight it. In a few weeks it will be forgotten, yet if a politician had stood up and said...Stop this nonsense !!!, his constituents would have lynched him. Things must be taken in context. Retroactively rewriting history only works for a short time, as the truth will out, Nancy Pelosi nonwithstanding. Since you brought it up.... How do you know that the govt and media reaction is not the reason why the Swine flu became "trivial"? Perhaps it all put a stop to it (and it certainly is not over) before it started. Don't you think it is better to be safe than sorry? I am sure had the govt done nothing and this ended up killing thousands you'd be here bitching that the govt did nothing to stop it and it is all their fault, blah, blah, blah..... The reason why the SW is a big deal is because unlike other flu's, it has killed younger healthier people, not people who elderly and/or already have health issues. And BTW our govt's and media's reaction is nothing compared to other countries. My wife's family is in Japan and they are freaking out about it over there, her mom calls us every week asking why we are not taking it seriously, she even sent us a care package with face masks. And speaking of over reactionary, isn't that what all these political threads really are, just over reacting to some small tidbit of information without having all the facts? Oh no! Obama farted, it must be because of his policy on [fill in the blank] I must rant about it on car forums so I can whip everyone up into a frenzy! . Edited May 20, 2009 by MoPho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West7se Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 For me reading this thread, it is neither a rant nor trivial. Is the method shown a torture?, not sure without undergoing the same thing, after all the chap says it compounds the natural `fear` of drowning, now sleep depravation is also considered a torture as well. If troops ( ours included) are doing anything like this then is not not in breach of the Geneva convention - I dunno. Whilst back on the swine flu thing, our govt send each and everyone of us in the UK a leaflet (thats around 60 million folks) explaining how to avoid contracting this, now for me I found that a bit premature given that only 107 (yesterdays figue) have contracted it and no one has died yet. The money spent on those leaflets would have been better spent on the general state of our health services, which are on its knees at the moment. Ineresting debate folks.Look foward to reading more. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 That guy on the video wasn't tortured... he knew it was only one time and he could stop when he wanted. Doing it over and over again (with the victim not knowing if it will ever end) I think is cruel and torturous. How could any person not say whatever you want or make up whatever he thinks you want to hear... The "ticking timebomb" scenario is a ruse... that premise leads to "how do you know what terrorists know unless we torture them all". War is hell and I give a lot of slack when it comes to actions on the battlefield. But once you take the prisoner off the battlefield, and have control of the situation, we have the time and opportunity to uphold our values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davemk1 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 So many red herrings. By strict definition our own military considers waterboarding to be torture. The context has no bearing........ ticking time bomb or not. It's against our laws and those laws were broken. You might think that these bad men deserved it and I for the most agree but that doesn't matter as it is against our laws. What kind of example does send to our citizens as well as those around the world if we selectively choose to obey or disobey laws at our whim? The administration screwed up and did not listen to our own intelligence experts about 911 and they buried their heads in the isolationist sand. Then after the fact they panicked and did things that they knew were wrong as they lied about it afterward. Now the truth is coming out and anyone that can hold their head high and think that our government acted with honor and dignity sees the world in a far different light than I. time for a lunchtime blat. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderbrake Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 As noted there are a lot of red herrings, so I shall not try to pursue every comment or try to convert everyone to my opinion of the situation. A lot of good, reasoned points have been made, and I cannot argue that I am comfortable with all the treatments of all the prisoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDrye Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 As noted there are a lot of red herrings, so I shall not try to pursue every comment or try to convert everyone to my opinion of the situation. A lot of good, reasoned points have been made, and I cannot argue that I am comfortable with all the treatments of all the prisoners. Thanks Jerry!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Ebrahimi Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Don't you think it is better to be safe than sorry? I am sure had the govt done nothing and this ended up killing thousands you'd be here bitching that the govt did nothing to stop it and it is all their fault, blah, blah, blah..... In terms of our government, no, I'd rather be sorry than 'safe'. This bubble-wrapped world we live in today as "citizens" is preposterous IMO. We become more sheep-like every day. I wish the FEDERAL government would stick to defending our shores and delivering the mail. Let the local/state governments deal with issues so that when they make a poor decision, it affects their geographic locale, not the entire country. It's far easier to correct a mistake in a bass boat than a cruise ship. What happened to common sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoPho Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 In terms of our government, no, I'd rather be sorry than 'safe'. This bubble-wrapped world we live in today as "citizens" is preposterous IMO. We become more sheep-like every day. I wish the FEDERAL government would stick to defending our shores and delivering the mail. Let the local/state governments deal with issues so that when they make a poor decision, it affects their geographic locale, not the entire country. It's far easier to correct a mistake in a bass boat than a cruise ship. What happened to common sense? A virus knows no boarders, it is not a state issue! That is common sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Ebrahimi Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I guess I should have prefaced my post by saying that only the first line related to what I quoted, the rest was just a general rant about the state of our country/government/society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Let's face it, we had lots of warning 911 was going to happen without having to resort to torture. Those in the White House at the time of 911 chose to ignore the warnings for one reason or another. At least per Richard Clarke's book about the matter, the facts of which were not disputed by the White House when the book was released. And as the country's chief anti-terrorism official at the time of 911, Clarke was in a position to know. So, it was not necessary to torture anyone to get actionable intelligence that 911 was imminent. The problem was getting those in power to take the warning seriously. That, however takes a completely different kind of "intelligence". Then, after it was too late to do anything meaningful, the torture policy was amended courtesy of some very imaginative attorneys, and what was always understood as torture was no longer. Unfortunately, other than making those White House folks feel better for dropping the ball on 911, the new policy doesn't seem to have accomplished much, at least of a positive nature. What I have never really understood is why the Republicans in power have always gotten a free pass on 911. There were there, they had the info it was coming and yet they did nothing. Instead they instituted a torture policy and then took bows for keeping the country safe after 911. Of course, at that point it was too late. Sort of like a pitcher bragging about a shut out after giving up 15 runs in the first inning, if you will. To put it another way, what would my conservative brethern here in the Seven community say if Obama or Clinton had been in power at the time of 911? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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