So how come no "American or Canadian" light weight 7?

[Toyotus 7]

Well, as many of you know, there have been Canadian-based small industry attempts to build lightweight super seven replicas as turnkey and kit forms in the past. The Ontario firm run by George Fejer that build Toyota powered sevens in the 1980s may be the best example. As far as I can tell, the company that produced sevens out of Victoria BC back then was an offshoot of Fejer's work. In BC, at least, these cars were/are registered as "replikits".

[ropaSeven]

The sevens market is not as deplete as we think. The Locost folks are alive and well and some have really fit and finish builds. Most are interested in the more true seven-type aspects, of light weight, small engine, fun driving experience.

 

Nothing wrong with the V8 or V6 models, but so not necessary in such a light weight machine. And, with the modern day 3 and 4 cylinder engines by adding supercharging and turbo charging there is nice power to be gained. And - folks - there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting a 4 cylinder in a Stalker chassis. One exists with a GM Ecotec Turbo from a Pontiac Soltice and is producing somewhere around 300 plus hp. There is a Stalker chassis with Electric motor.

 

I've seen rotary, Alfa Romero, Volks Wagon, Honda, Suburu, Ford, Gm, Miata, Toyota, Triumph, MG, Electric, Motorcycle, and other engines in the seven-type. When you build it is your choice to make it your own. When you buy it your choice to rebuild.

 

My Birkin with its Ford Focus Zetec 4 cyl runs just fine and provides great enjoyment. My Stalker V6 3.4 na is also a fine example of seven-type motoring (it is auto crossed) and road driven.

My old Lotus Europa with 80hp isn't fast, but handles well on the auto cross circuit. I enoy going to the Stalker Ambush in Georgia,but I am not a capable enough driver to keep up with the Supercharged Stalkers or V8. This doesn't mean I don't have the fun factor of open road - in nature - driving. I attend the Mid West sevens events it other seven-type owners. A slower paced very social-able event and learning what others have done to their sevens. A mixed event of Caterham, Birkin, WCM Ultralite, Stalker, Westfield, Leich, and naturally Locost (others). My Lotus journey began in Germany in 1968.

 

I applaud the folks that build the kits and the Locost folks who begin from scratch (a pile of tubes, and parts). The cheapest (by price) finished and on track Locost I saw was a hand-hammered aluminium skinned BMW running gear one. It's cost to build was $2,000. Keith Tanner wrote a book of his Maita powered build.

 

So, I guess what I am saying is: you can spend the money for a kit or turnkey car, or start from scratch. The " fun " factor is the same throughout the seven world. You can road drive or track it.

 

Wouldn't it be GREAT if the American racing circuits had the turn out of sevens they have in England on race day? Or like the European seven owners have get road driving events? Like the European group that container shipped their cars to the USA for a 3,000 mile trip?

 

Hopefully we will have 12 to 15 seven-type cars in Galena, Illinois for the Mid West event. The Stalker Ambush - open to all sevens now - had around 12 last year in Georgia.

 

Colin Chapman had in mind to replace the seven with the Europa. Fortunately, for all of us, one of his suppliers came to the rescue and the Seven (Caterham) lived on. Many variations of which came forth and gave us a wide choice of marques.

 

Its not just the buy or build gratification in the sevens community, but a comradery (sp), passion that emerges, when owners get together, and share ideas. Have fun, build or buy, but please get out and enjoy the ride!!

Edited March 28, 2015 by ropaSeven

[xcarguy]

. . . . . . And - folks - there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting a 4 cylinder in a Stalker chassis. One exists with a GM Ecotec Turbo from a Pontiac Soltice and is producing somewhere around 300 plus hp. There is a Stalker chassis with Electric motor. . . . . . . Its not just the buy or build gratification in the sevens community, but a comradery (sp), passion that emerges, when owners get together, and share ideas. Have fun, build or buy, but please get out and enjoy the ride!!

 

ropa,

 

Well said........It is truly a passion we all share. As for the Stalker with the 4 cylinder, it's an extremely well done example that currently belongs to Jack Banker. The car was originally build by Sugar Grove Custom Cars:

 

http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=17181

 

http://www.sugargrovecars.com/

 

As for the electric powered Stalker, I don't know anything about the car. However, there are a few photos on the Stalker yahoo gallery, but they've been posted since 2010 with no updates:

 

http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=18115

[jimrankin]

Thanks Loren,

I was wondering why you didn't do anything with the WCM program and now I know. I ran my own business for 30+ years and can agree with you on most of the points you brought up. I was signed to a couple of different unions and had all of the expenses you noted and a couple you didn't, worked an average of 60+ hours a week and didn't really make much more "per hour" most years as my union carpenters with their package.

Just some more rambling on......

As for your comment about the WCM frames, dead on, mine is anything but straight. probably came out of the jig tweaked or the jig itself was tweaking a bit.

I still think it's possible to successfully manufacture a 7 clone kit for market. Stalker has the big motor end covered and I agree that there isn't enough room for two in that game. I also think that they, or one of the other successful "kit car" (Cobra/Speedster etc.) companies could give Caterham more than a run for its money with a product like I mentioned previously.

It doesn't make sense to put a small motor into a Stalker frame/suspension/brake package designed for 400HP. But it does make sense to use the existing frameworks of their business to piggyback the cost of overhead and utilize their trained labor and established vendors to add a second "complimentary" product to the existing line. I was always very aware of making my minimum gross needed to meet the percentage of fixed overhead cost. Any projects above that number became my profit makers, and at a good rate because they already had the majority of their overhead covered so its share was now became profit. Same for the car kits, the more that share the fixed overhead the less each unit has to finance.

What we are missing here in the USA is a kit more along the lines of the original concept of an affordable really fun car. Still simple and light enough that a Miata drive train would make it feel anything but slow and with enough modern engineering to make it turn and stop. (IRS-disc brakes) An awful lot of what you need is available directly from existing suppliers.

My biggest problem with the S2K is the really overweight outboard un-sprung parts of the suspension, front and rear, that were designed for cars twice the weight and in some cases engineered to jump ditches off road. Just those four carrier pieces being properly designed and supplied with the "new" lightweight car would put it way up in the handling comparisons without breaking the affordable barrier. A kit designed for the Miata engine/trans/differential and supplied with just the engineered and machined parts that even a skilled home fabricator wouldn't want to take on could still be sold out pretty affordably. The real labor intensive part of these cars is assembly and finish. Supply the difficult parts and provide a list of the parts that work and are available that a home builder can purchase later and you have a start point that gets the cars out there and allows them to get put together as time and money allows. This will also allow the end user to choose his own level of cost (cheap aluminum seat or expensive carbon fiber race seat : dual adjustable racing shocks or budget non adjustable. wheels, tires etc).

I've been lucky enough and worked hard enough that I can afford just about anything I want (and now find out I don't want all that much, go figure) but that doesn't hold true for everyone, especially younger people who have to be careful where their money goes and be sure they are getting good value for it. Purchasing "turn key" or even "all parts supplied" kits is probably going to be out of the question but a project they can get into without passing their threshold may not be.

It might just be that track days are kind of like stacking the deck as far as interest in 7's goes but there are lot of younger guys out there who really show a lot of interest in these cars. Many of them are tracking fairly expensive rides that are also their daily drivers and could probably be swayed into having a second fun toy or dedicated track vehicle if the cost wasn't too prohibitive. Especially since most of them know that writing off their primary ride at the track is going to put them in a real hurt where running something they could probably fix if it gets into a wall is a better option.

Like I said, just wandering.

[Blokko]

I wonder whether the market would be bigger in the US if the price point was low and there was a way of selling a complete package (i.e. built and road-registered)? In the UK I could get a ready to drive away, factory built Westie with all new parts (including engine - 150bhp Zetec) for less than $30k - though I believe discounts are available on this figure. I know that if such a product existed here in New England I'd snap one up. Gone are the days when I used to dream about breaking a donor and building a kit car from scratch (my first exposure to kit car builds in the earlyish days of the Internet was the Robin Hood 2B :puke:).

 

Someone was telling me that a lot of orders were placed in Germany when the latest low powered (3 pot Suzuki??), live axle Caterham came out. Seems there were people who were looking for a (relatively) cheap, modestly powered, quintessentially British sportscar, but didn't want the hassle of building and registering the car. I'm wondering whether the same would apply in New England (where there seems to be plenty on interest in Brit cars)?

 

Though I reckon you could build a Westie under license in the US to the same price point (probably cheaper) as a UK built car, I'm guessing that US laws / red tape would scupper such a venture.

[Blokko]

Wouldn't it be GREAT if the American racing circuits had the turn out of sevens they have in England on race day? Or like the European seven owners have get road driving events? Like the European group that container shipped their cars to the USA for a 3,000 mile trip?

 

I have wondered about whether a business venture could be made of shipping ex Academy 7's to the US for use as on-track renters rather than for road use. One (of many) issues is that they would be S3's rather than SV's. Used Westies would be cheaper to purchase, but I'm not sure how well they would stand up to track use.

 

I have toured with the Se7ens List and with some of the UK guys that came over for the Canadian (Grizzly bear??) blat. I know that there is a lot of interest in a return tour to the US - possibly North East Seaboard this time.

[Croc]

I have wondered about whether a business venture could be made of shipping ex Academy 7's to the US for use as on-track renters rather than for road use. One (of many) issues is that they would be S3's rather than SV's. Used Westies would be cheaper to purchase, but I'm not sure how well they would stand up to track use.

 

Hi Steve

I think the concept is a great one...however, the problem with your idea is that you need EPA pre-approval for race cars before you can even start to ship. The rule is you need a manufacturer to certify a car as a race car and then seek pre-approval from the EPA. Assuming they grant it then the cars can come in. If no certification is possible then the car still needs pre approval but can only be imported for a fixed 3-5 year period. At the end it is crushed or exported. The problem when someone tried this before is that there was some fear that certifying a Caterham as a race car would immediately rule out road registration for all other Caterham cars under the low volume import kit car rules. Also some of those cars were previously registered/titled in the UK so that rules them out for race car import at any rate as that puts them into the road car rules.

 

EPA pre-approval takes forever - I am still waiting for approval on one of my cars. Your immigration and move to the US was much quicker!

 

 

I wonder whether the market would be bigger in the US if the price point was low and there was a way of selling a complete package (i.e. built and road-registered)?

 

I believe this is a critical part of the solution. People get put off by lack of ability to build a car and don't want to deal with the hassles of road registering in all states.

 

 

[Blokko]

Hi Mike. Guess that thwarts any chance of me becoming the Jonny Leroux of New England then

[jimrankin]

The discussion kind of went out at all angles from my original question, not that that isn't interesting and entertaining but back to the original question, producing a "kit Car" here. If a "kit Car" vehicle is already "built" by the company that is producing it the cost is going to be quite high and also the registration process in some cases is going to be more difficult. Colin Chapman sold the 7 as a kit not just to get around the value added tax but to make it a "cheap" starting point that was still doable by a handy person. The same should hold true of a modern kit. In our modern case the "kit" part can keep the manufacturer out of needing all of the testing and certification of being an actual Motor Vehicle Manufacturer. As much as buying "turn key" cars appeals to some people who don't have the place, or think they don't have the talent/tools to build a kit car it does blur the line between a manufactured car and a kit. Even though a complete car is probably the best bet for a producers overhead and profit target a healthy sale of kits is going to be needed to keep the government from looking at them too closely and to generate a base to petition the need for something like the California SB100 in other states.

SB100 in California allows for 500 "kit/home made" cars each year to be registered under its rules. It took a legislator here not being able to register his own Cobra to get the bill introduced but that doesn't mean that an organized group from any state can't try to get something like it introduced in their own state. Basically the state DMV's are trying to keep "unsafe" vehicles off the road. Most of their thinking is biased towards preventing rebuilt totals and also decrepit junk (masquerading under "historic" and "antique" classifications) from being registered. The SB100 legislation was well written to keep this from happening so it didn't get kicked out by DMV or other protest.

If you don't think that a "small" group of manufacturers can't manage some clout look at what the "off road" industry has done to change policy in several states about maximum bumper and light heights and modified suspensions. Those are a couple of things that I think are actually unsafe on the street (at least for the people they hit) and they got passed.

I have to admit that a bit of what has been stated here by other posters is unfortunately cold hard fact and seems a harbinger of doom for the future growth of the industry, but, as we see it isn't dead yet and I think it can be best revitalized and grown by getting back to the roots of it all, inexpensive, exciting cars that put passion back into ownership.

[Paul Hill]

Perhaps the best North American success story that fits this thread would be Factory Five, although they too seem to be in trouble with some states trying to register non replica models.

[Off Road SHO]

Hi Steve

I believe this is a critical part of the solution. People get put off by lack of ability to build a car and don't want to deal with the hassles of road registering in all states.

 

 

[/color]

 

Croc,

 

I'm not sure what you mean by these last sentences. A car does not have to be registered in all states, just the one the owner lives in. The other 49 states will accept it as a road going car and allow it on their own turf.

 

Kit cars are built by their respective manufacturers and assembled by their owners. The are quite a few more people that can assemble as opposed to those that can build.

 

 

Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

 

Tom

Edited March 30, 2015 by Off Road SHO
can't speel wirth a dam.

[NVP66S]

I wonder whether the market would be bigger in the US if the price point was low and there was a way of selling a complete package (i.e. built and road-registered)? In the UK I could get a ready to drive away, factory built Westie with all new parts (including engine - 150bhp Zetec) for less than $30k - though I believe discounts are available on this figure. I know that if such a product existed here in New England I'd snap one up. Gone are the days when I used to dream about breaking a donor and building a kit car from scratch (my first exposure to kit car builds in the earlyish days of the Internet was the Robin Hood 2B :puke:).

 

Westfield kits are available in the US from Manik, and builder support for the version that uses the Miata donor is done by Flyin' Miata. Their web page shows prices, and the base is $14,600 plus the Miata donor. That price includes the $4000. fee for shipping to the US, which hurts. If you're not in the mood for breaking and overhauling the donor, FM sells pallets of the appropriate parts.

https://www.flyinmiata.com/westfield/configurator.php

 

It's still a big project, though.

Dan

[Croc]

Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

 

Tom

 

Guess I was not being clear. I was responding to Blokko's idea of the prospective manufacturer/seller potentially selling road-ready and registration ready sevens into the market place (i.e. ready to drive rather than being a kit requiring work). In this instance, the manufacturer/seller needs to have it sorted so that he can make that happen in all states to maximize his potential sales. I know the buyer only needs to register in one state but the seller cannot make a living selling to just one state under this proposed business model.

[Guest kb58]

One thing to keep in mind is that roads are influenced by/constrained by the geography. Many (most?) roads in the States are essentially straight and flat b/c that's what the terrain allows. Contrast this with the geography across the pond where Se7ens have more mass appeal. IMO, this is why folks in the US tend to gravitate to straight line G's vs lateral G's. It's kind of the only way to have fun on a boring straight road, unless you do those sideways wheelies in SUV's as seen on the youtubes. In terms of a Se7en, a street car made solely for twisty roads is pretty benign on straight roads, which is why it's mostly a track/auto-x market here. Obviously, the exception is the mountain areas; you'll find a general population there that can enjoy a twisty road going street car.

I live in Southern California where there is a nice selection of twisty roads. I recently went on a business trip to Arizona and the above comments sure apply. Having a great handling car out there is completely useless, with miles of dead straight roads where SUVs are pushing you to move out of the way. One perk was that fuel was a full dollar cheaper than CA, but on the other hand, I saw more cops there in one day than in a month in CA.

[Zona]

I don't agree to use the kit-replica manufacture it's not good with fitting matters, go with the original and it's better in performance.

[Off Road SHO]

KB,

 

Yeah we have some of the straightest, most boring interstates in AZ, but our local state highways are superb for seven drives. In fact, I might do the Highway 89 and 89A from Wilhoit to Prescott this weekend. It's our version of the Tail of the Dragon.

 

Tom