Zetec dies without warning

[kayentaut]

I went to take the Caterham out the other day and about a mile down the road it lost power without warning.

 

The last time the car had been driven was about three weeks ago and has since sat on a battery tender, but when I started it up the night before it seemed like the battery was pretty low. Looks like the kids left a light on when they were playing in the car at Christmas. I turned the lights off and left it overnight on the tender. The next day it started up right away so I assumed all was good. Then 10 minutes into driving it died even though it seemed to be running perfectly. I couldn't get it restarted on it's own but it did get going after a jump. Then it lost power only after a minute or so.

 

Today I replaced the battery hoping the one that had been run down just couldn't hold a charge. It started up great, idled for 10 minutes without issue but died just as I got it out of the driveway. I'd read about someone having a similar problem because their ground strap was loose so I checked those. One of the grounds was going to a powder coated part of the chassis so I took the paint off and reattached it. It started right up but died again right out of the driveway.

 

The last two times it died it wouldn't restart immediately but if I let it sit for a few minutes it would get going again and I could move it back into the garage.

 

What's the next thing I should check?

 

 

2004 Caterham Superlight R

Engine is a 2.0L Zetec 202hp setup with the TWM manifold, Pectel engine management, and Kent Focus 12 cams.

[coffee break]

It may be an unrelated issue; fuel pressure?

[breezy7]

I would start by checking the voltage at the battery with the engine running to rule out a bad alternator not charging the battery. You should see ~13.5 -15 volts.

[kayentaut]

Coffee Break,

You might be onto something. since my original post I have been digging through old emails with the last owner from just before I purchased the car. He had his mechanic replace the fuel pump relay just before I bought it. I didn't think much about it because the car has been sitting a long time (build completed in 2007, but car has 1800 miles.

 

If it is the fuel pump relay, what might be causing frequent failures? I have only put 200 miles on the car since I bought it.

Thanks,

Jim

[Automoda]

Zetec coils are garbage. I lost half of a summer of driving because of one of those. I traded it for a spare and had the same problem so I figured it wasn't the coils. After months of trying to solve the problem I went back to the coils. Tried another set from another car. Still bad. Then I tried all of the coils on a friends car. HIS did the same constant miss type of behavior, so it looks like we had about 4 sets of bad coils. I got a 120 dollar set of coils and wires from MSD and it runs great now. In short, it seems to me that the factory coils are garbage. To make it worse for me, I also had a TPS going bad at the same time so I was getting 2 sets of problems overlapping randomly just to confuse it all. Instead of dieing off, my car would pop and miss a lot and then suddenly go gutless for no reason (as the TPS cut out it'd get about 0-6 degrees of advance which barely runs).

 

Fuel pressure can be tested easily enough. We just put a gauge in-line and propped it where it could be seen while driving, waiting for the problem to show.

[BusaNostra]

COFFE break....I second it...

[Kitcat]

My Zetec has also encountered coil issues (among others:)). So I also had the overlapping engine problems. I mistakenly thought that when I traded my X-flow engined car in for a Zetec powered one I'd have better reliability. I did get better power and better gas mileage, probably less reliability.

[Davemk1]

When it dies does it sputter to a stop or does it die suddenly while running normally?

 

dave

[coffee break]

It sounds like a single point problem/failure. An intermittent open circuit can be a pain to find. :banghead:

[kayentaut]

Just ran it around the neighborhood with a multimeter on the battery. Rock solid 13.6V but I never got it to quit so I'd call the test inconclusive.

 

One interesting thing I did notice is that right after starting the motor the electrical system is at 12.5V and it takes a good rev to get it to kick it up to 13.6. Once it's there it stays there. I've never seen that on another car before. Does that say anything about the alternator or is there something trick about this electrical system I don't know?

 

@Davemk1: It dies suddenly. No sputtering.

Edited January 7, 2016 by kayentaut

[traveler501]

I have no experience with the Zetec engine (although I had a similar issue with my RX-8). If this were my car I would

assume that this is clearly an electrical issue and since a) the symptoms fit the pattern of a coil degrading thermally and

b) apparently Zetec's have a history with coil failures, I would personally go with Automoda's solution and get new coils.

That being said, I wouldn't necessarily jump into new plug wires, nor necessarily get an MSD setup if cost is an issue.

However, I'd be sure that whichever coil I settled on wasn't being manufactured by whomever is private-labeling these

Zetec coils for Ford! (if it's physically different looking, it probably is different). Best of luck…hopefully it's that simple!

[Davemk1]

Just ran it around the neighborhood with a multimeter on the battery. Rock solid 13.6V but I never got it to quit so I'd call the test inconclusive.

 

One interesting thing I did notice is that right after starting the motor the electrical system is at 12.5V and it takes a good rev to get it to kick it up to 13.6. Once it's there it stays there. I've never seen that on another car before. Does that say anything about the alternator or is there something trick about this electrical system I don't know?

 

@Davemk1: It dies suddenly. No sputtering.

 

If it dies suddenly that tells me it's electrical. If it was the fuel pump I would think it would sputter for a few seconds as the fuel pressure dropped too low to run. It sounds like a bad coil or an intermittently bad ground.

 

Good luck!!

 

dave

[scannon]

I also have no experience with the Zetec engine but a friend who had one with similar symptoms found that the crankshaft (or maybe the camshaft, I can't remember which the Zetec has) position sensor was going bad.

[Automoda]

Its normal for voltage to start off low and require a little blip of the throttle to switch to normal. My Birkin's red alternator light is always on until that happens.

 

The MSD coils require new wires since they don't use the pop-on type of connector on the coil side. What they have is better but different. And the sad thing is the wires are too long so unless you move the coil away from the engine a few extra inches, it'll look stupid.

 

I tried the crank sensor. They're about 30 bucks. Mine was fine after all.

 

Once my car died suddenly and it was the main plug on my Megasquirt falling out. My friend's ZX3 using an Emerald has a break in a wire by the computer that also causes a similar problem. That kind of thing kinda sucks to figure out.

[kayentaut]

Guys,

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, this forum is such a great resource.

Jim

[Klasik-69]

You may want yo check to see if he crank sensor is loose. If the sensor gets too far from the flywheel you will lose ignition. Hit a bump, it shakes out and dies. Later it restarts as temperature changes bring it close enough to signal. My Zetec drove me nuts, would not fire. I tried everything including changing the cam sensor. Then I talked to Jon at Caterham USA and he told me to check the crank sensor and connector. BINGO, problem solved. I've never had any issues with the coils or plugs.

[kayentaut]

The car has been running OK with no sign of the stalling until last week. I had driven the car from Sonoma to Santa Clara (80 miles) with no issues; I parked the car for 3 hours, it then started up fine and then after driving for 15 minutes it just died. It really feels like a fuel problem. After sitting for two hours the engine fired right up. While the car was in Sonoma Rich Kamp, the local Caterham dealer, troubleshot the Pectel ECU to make sure it was operating correctly... no issues found.

 

Two days later I drove the car from Santa Clara to Monterey (80 miles); the car made the trip successfully, but there were numerous occasions when there were slight hiccups in what feels like the fuel delivery. In half the cases, it felt like the engine missed a single beat, in the other cases it missed 2-3 beats. We are in the process of troubleshooting the fuel pump now; it is mounted in the tank from the passenger side. Unfortunately if it is a bad fuel pump, Rich says Caterham no longer stocks this pump.

 

Now my question …. Has anyone installed an exterior fuel pump in a 7 with a Zetec engine? If so where was it installed and what brand/model?

Thanks,

Jim

[slomove]

The car has been running OK with no sign of the stalling until last week. I had driven the car from Sonoma to Santa Clara (80 miles) with no issues; I parked the car for 3 hours, it then started up fine and then after driving for 15 minutes it just died. It really feels like a fuel problem. After sitting for two hours the engine fired right up. While the car was in Sonoma Rich Kamp, the local Caterham dealer, troubleshot the Pectel ECU to make sure it was operating correctly... no issues found.

 

Two days later I drove the car from Santa Clara to Monterey (80 miles); the car made the trip successfully, but there were numerous occasions when there were slight hiccups in what feels like the fuel delivery. In half the cases, it felt like the engine missed a single beat, in the other cases it missed 2-3 beats. We are in the process of troubleshooting the fuel pump now; it is mounted in the tank from the passenger side. Unfortunately if it is a bad fuel pump, Rich says Caterham no longer stocks this pump.

 

Now my question …. Has anyone installed an exterior fuel pump in a 7 with a Zetec engine? If so where was it installed and what brand/model?

Thanks,

Jim

 

I have an external Bosch fuel pump that pulls from my fuel cell through a low pressure filter and feeds the injectors through a high pressure filter. The Fuel Safe cell has a small slosh tank in the bottom to deal with lateral acceleration. This is install next to the tank side to the skin so that the bolt heads are inside the rear wheel wing well.

 

The Bosch pump and high pressure filter were sold by MSI (Woody Harris) some 12 years ago as a kit mounted on an alu plate with rubber feet/bushings (to reduce the pump whirr). Has been working without any trouble since, even in 100++ degrees heat. Unfortunately I don't know the part numbers and don't get to the parts without major disassembly. You could try and ask Larry at MSI in Vacaville, CA even if they don't do Sevens stuff anymore.

Edited December 14, 2016 by slomove

[1turbofocus]

I have a little experience with the Zetec over the years and feel your going about this wrong , Fuel pumps dont do hiccups to the engine , the more load you do the less psi you have till you run out of PSI or they just quit

 

If you want to give me a call I will be glad to try to help 704 249 3745

 

Tom

[Taber10]

I have a little experience with the Zetec over the years... If you want to give me a call I will be glad to try to help 704 249 3745 Tom

 

A quick look through the Ford Focus forum back at least ten years will show that 1turbofocus is being very modest--he has helped countless guys with the Zetec--I think it would pay to call him since he so generously offered!