Debugging of my Caterham begins

[mrmustang]

Ok, so vacuum ports are plugged, fired the car up, still the same three to four cycles to get the car to run and took a quick read

1 maxed out at 10

2 maxed out at 10

3 sitting at 3

4 maxed maxed out on 10

 

Go to loosen the nuts so I can start adjusting and find them all loose already. Start at number 1 and all of a sudden I get a fuel ignition flash out of number 4 and the car dies. Reversed what I had done (I think) and killed the battery trying to get the car to run again...SIGH. Did I screw the pooch, or will this be a reversible error once I've charged the battery overnight?

 

How can I get the adjustments done if the car won't run?

Do I turn the adjustment downwards or upwards to lower the numbers on #1. Downwards will pull the thread in, while going upwards will pull the thread out (clockwise thread)

Then again, how the hell can I make adjustments on four throttle bodies with only three doubled threaded (clockwise and counter clockwise) adjustment rods.

 

 

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Bill

Edited March 4 by mrmustang

[MV8]

Skimmed three pages of posts. New plugs and  injectors. Fuel pressure with the pump running/jumpered on? Compression test? Have you looked at the programming yet? CTS temp shown look right? There is no accel pump so if that emulation is off, it would be hard to move until sufficiently warm for the programming. The hidden linkage is not helping matters. I'd take the intake sys off to set it up on the bench for equal closed position and understand how to make one adjustment for idle. Write down everything you find and if you eventually want to change anything in the programming. Take pics of the setting screens if necessary but you should be able to make changes as save as a name you come up with, like the date the change is made, so as not to overwrite the original specs you may want to go back to.

[Vovchandr]

Between the software and the throttle bodies take pictures of EVERYTHING and screen shots of "point zero" if you need to go back to it. Count the threads on the linkages if you have to. You want to have a "known good" to come back to. I know you said you already adjusted one, its still fine take measurements and counts to go back to this stage if needed. At least you know at this stage only one is "compromised". 

 

You're not screwed but this will be painful. I never messed around with this too much alone and let the tuner at the time try to set everything to a "good zero" position before continuing with tuning. Smart but scared the hell out of me and was lots of adjusting back and forth. 

 

You can use feeler gauges of even a piece of folder paper to measure the gap quickly as you're doing adjustments. You stick them into the butterfly to see if they all allow the same amount in/past them in the "closed" position. 

 

For what it's worth, fair warning I sent mine out from a running car to Borla/TWM to make sure they are fine and aren't a variable in my troubleshooting. They sell a "tune up" for $100. When they got mine they told me almost everything on mine was "beyond repair" and was needed to be replaced and so they did. I got back essentially a new unit by the time they were done. 

 

Also at some point in time might be worth taking them off regardless to make sure you dont have same issues as me. My runners developed a collapse in the thin metal by the gasket and were a problem on a few cylinders. Hopefully you dont have this problem but its good to double check. 

 

  

 

Also the mysterious flash out still happens on my car all the time. 

[mrmustang]

13 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

Between the software and the throttle bodies take pictures of EVERYTHING and screen shots of "point zero" if you need to go back to it. Count the threads on the linkages if you have to. You want to have a "known good" to come back to. I know you said you already adjusted one, its still fine take measurements and counts to go back to this stage if needed. At least you know at this stage only one is "compromised". 

 

You're not screwed but this will be painful. I never messed around with this too much alone and let the tuner at the time try to set everything to a "good zero" position before continuing with tuning. Smart but scared the hell out of me and was lots of adjusting back and forth. 

 

You can use feeler gauges of even a piece of folder paper to measure the gap quickly as you're doing adjustments. You stick them into the butterfly to see if they all allow the same amount in/past them in the "closed" position. 

 

For what it's worth, fair warning I sent mine out from a running car to Borla/TWM to make sure they are fine and aren't a variable in my troubleshooting. They sell a "tune up" for $100. When they got mine they told me almost everything on mine was "beyond repair" and was needed to be replaced and so they did. I got back essentially a new unit by the time they were done. 

 

Also at some point in time might be worth taking them off regardless to make sure you dont have same issues as me. My runners developed a collapse in the thin metal by the gasket and were a problem on a few cylinders. Hopefully you dont have this problem but its good to double check. 

 

  

 

Also the mysterious flash out still happens on my car all the time. 

Did you send the whole assembly to them?

Given my location, I'm wondering if  taking my car up to 1turbofocus shop in NC (about 95 miles from my location) would be a better choice. I don't want to screw things up worse then I already have.

 

Thinking I'll try for a few minutes tomorrow morning with a charged battery and see if I can get the basics down.

 

Bill

Edited March 5 by mrmustang

[Vovchandr]

14 minutes ago, mrmustang said:

Did you send the whole assembly to them?

Given my location, I'm wondering if  taking my car up to 1turbofocus

 

Yeah. I think it was over winter. I send the whole thing out. Was expecting to do the $100 rebuild but it turned out to be not so. They were very nice to deal with though. New manifold didn't have vacuum ports at all, but I specifically asked them to redrill them in case I ever wanted my IAC to work (so far I haven't even tried and kept them plugged). They said nobody really uses IAC on ITBs 

 

After dealing with my car I can't tell if Tom would be delighted or frightened to deal with another "sister configuration" to what mine was. 

 

To properly tune a car he wants a few things. He wants adjustible cam gears in place, wideband installed, datalogging strongly preferred and at least laptop properly working with tuning software for ECU. My car did not have a knock sensor but those help. 

 

Just looked it up: Rebuild was $1100.... dont recall if that includes shipping back. 

Edited March 5 by Vovchandr

[mrmustang]

Ok, well I adjusted back to as close to original as I could get it. Car now idles at 1,400 rpms warm

Cyl 1-10

Cyl 2-10

Cyl 3-10

Cly 4-5

Go figure-

It starts, it runs, I've locked everything down and will allow it to cool so I can see if I can get it to fire again.

If I had actual instructions on how to balance them, I think I'd be alright, but as of right now, I'm gun shy.

 

Sent a PM to Tom to see if he wants to lay eyes on it. I'll be happy to throw it on my trailer and haul it up to him, even if it's for just the basics at this point as he has far more experience with this than I ever will.

 

Bill

[mrmustang]

Two turns and the car fired up, cold idle at 1,800rpms

#1 cyl-10

#2 cyl-10

#3 cyl-6.5

#4 cyl 10.5

 

I may disassemble the aircleaner cover and horns again to see if I can tweak #3 & #4 a bit, but my feelings are that it's running and I should leave well enough alone as I really don't know what I'm doing. Tuning wise, at this point, I'm just looking to tweak the throttle bodies and maybe fuel pressure (unknown at this time). Thinking with that done, the car should run really well and I will not have to touch the ECU.

 

Bill

[mrmustang]

Getting closer

Not even ready for the road, but it does fire and run better than the last time.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I did forget the flow meter on my workbench, almost toppled over when the bumperette on the Tiger caught my pant leg.....Yes, I would have posted that too

Edited Monday at 09:13 PM by mrmustang

[CharlesG]

After reading your other thread about converting to Jenvey throttle bodies, I suspect part of your problem is the 50mm TBs you're currently running. That's a lot of air flow for a 200hp engine with Stage 1 cams. In comparison, my 235hp Vauxhall capable of 8000+ rpm has 48mm Weber throttle bodies.

[JohnCh]

4 minutes ago, CharlesG said:

After reading your other thread about converting to Jenvey throttle bodies, I suspect part of your problem is the 50mm TBs you're currently running. That's a lot of air flow for a 200hp engine with Stage 1 cams. In comparison, my 235hp Vauxhall capable of 8000+ rpm has 48mm Weber throttle bodies.

 

I missed that earlier.  50mm is huge for that spec.  As a point of comparison, I went with that size over 52mm for my 2.4L after Raceline ran a 2.4L with 50mm on the dyno and cleared 300hp at 7500rpm.  My 2.0L has 45mm Jenveys and makes 225-230hp.  

[mrmustang]

5 hours ago, CharlesG said:

After reading your other thread about converting to Jenvey throttle bodies, I suspect part of your problem is the 50mm TBs you're currently running. That's a lot of air flow for a 200hp engine with Stage 1 cams. In comparison, my 235hp Vauxhall capable of 8000+ rpm has 48mm Weber throttle bodies.

Thanks, once they are balanced, we will see how they behave.

 

5 hours ago, JohnCh said:

 

I missed that earlier.  50mm is huge for that spec.  As a point of comparison, I went with that size over 52mm for my 2.4L after Raceline ran a 2.4L with 50mm on the dyno and cleared 300hp at 7500rpm.  My 2.0L has 45mm Jenveys and makes 225-230hp.  

I was told they were 50mm, whether they are or not means little at the moment. Once they are balanced, we will see how they react to the street driving I am planning for now. I don't suspect we will be anywhere near redline or wide open throttle, but you never know, I might get bitten by the track bug again, maybe a little autocrossing instead of road racing, only time will tell.

 

Bill

[JohnCh]

The size likely impacts the shape of the torque curve and idle quality, but it shouldn't make the car undrivable.  However, it is worth mentioning given you're considering replacing them.

[Vovchandr]

I believe the 50mm set is standard TWM/Borla that was installed throughout the dealerships in US for this spec.

 

Mine is the same set so was the other set sold here recently and what others have on their cars. Whether right or wrong this was SOP. 

 

 

[MV8]

Remove the pedal box cover and make sure the throttle pedal end can move forward toward the pedal stop (i.e., the cable has slack if you lift the foot end of the pedal).

 

#2 and 3 cylinder throttle plates seem to be open slightly more than 1 and 4.

 

Treat this efi like a carburetor. On cold cranking, be in a position to pump and/or open the throttle to provide an input to the pectel to provide what would be an accelerator pump squirt into the engine. Cold engines need the same mixture as warm engines but less fuel makes it all the way, even with port efi.

 

Don't assume the brief time between your key turning from RUN to START is enough to prime the fuel system. In it's current state, I suggest turning the key to RUN and leave it for two full seconds, off, then to RUN again for a full second before engaging the starter. When it starts hold the throttle open slightly to bring the rpm up to 1500 or so (this is after you correct the linkage as described previously). If the rpm does not rise, quickly pump the throttle once (and as needed while still cold) to prevent stalling. This is not a new Honda.

Edited Wednesday at 08:40 AM by MV8

[slowdude]

9 hours ago, MV8 said:

Remove the pedal box cover and make sure the throttle pedal end can move forward toward the pedal stop (i.e., the cable has slack if you lift the foot end of the pedal).

 

#2 and 3 cylinder throttle plates seem to be open slightly more than 1 and 4.

 

Treat this efi like a carburetor. On cold cranking, be in a position to pump and/or open the throttle to provide an input to the pectel to provide what would be an accelerator pump squirt into the engine. Cold engines need the same mixture as warm engines but less fuel makes it all the way, even with port efi.

 

Don't assume the brief time between your key turning from RUN to START is enough to prime the fuel system. In it's current state, I suggest turning the key to RUN and leave it for two full seconds, off, then to RUN again for a full second before engaging the starter. When it starts hold the throttle open slightly to bring the rpm up to 1500 or so (this is after you correct the linkage as described previously). If the rpm does not rise, quickly pump the throttle once (and as needed while still cold) to prevent stalling. This is not a new Honda.

Yes, with my emerald, I turn key to on, fuel pump primes, then start.

 

You might want to check your map for fueling on start up. I believe mine is set fairly rich to compensate for what MV8 has mentioned above.

[MV8]

 

Looked over some pics of the intake system. I see that the idle speed is not automatically adjusted. Idle speed is controlled by the closed throttle stop.

 

The idle speed adjustment should be the left screw under the #3 cyl butterfly. Loosen the jamb nut with a box end short wrench while holding the screw with an allen wrench, run and adjust hot idle, then lightly snug the nut while holding the allen wrench so the adjustment will hold. Better to adjust to a hot idle than a cold cranking idle that will rise too high after a a couple minutes of running. You will need to keep the throttle open when cold. A bit more crude than most carburetors.

 

There are many ways to fashion a way to hold the throttle open slightly more when cold.

 

There is a hex head, throttle cable end under #2 that is the cable slack adjustment. A barrel sleeve against a flat of the hex and secured with an allen screw, is removed to be able to rotate the adjuster. You should be able to wedge the throttle pedal to the floor by using a block at the top of the pedal, then adjust the cable end so there is a small amount of slack (i.e., you can rotate the butterflies at the rotating linkage slightly more with the pedal wedged) to prevent breaking the cable after a few cycles from fatigue.

 

If you would like cockpit adjustable idle with this, an easy way to do that is to tee the vacuum ports on each runner together (three tees and one elbow connected with vacuum hose), then run a long vacuum hose to where you can get to it from the driver's seat. Doesn't need to be mounted to anything. Connect an adjustable aquarium valve to the end. You can put a small filter on the end or a tiny lawn and garden fuel filter in the middle somewhere if you wish. An evap cannister purge valve and wiring connector, placed near the engine with a toggle switch under the dash panel works too.

Edited Thursday at 01:06 PM by MV8