More S2 Advise Please

[Rodnok]

I have a soft install kit for the DCOE's. The kit includes a spacer that fits between the carbs and manifold that has O rings on both sides. The intake manifolds also have O rings on the surface that mates with the carbs. I have never seen any kind of an installation where 2 O ringed surfaces are mated. Generally O rings are used to provide a seal against a flat surface. Am I missing something here? This just seems wrong.

 

Also, I'm ready to install a cooling fan and I'd like to have it as close to flush against the face of the radiator as I can get it. This is a new S2 chassis and it has the three sheet metal fingers that the original fan would mount to. Am I gonna go to hell if I cut them off to enable a better fit for the cooling fan? What do others do?

 

Finally does anyone know of a color match for the frame paint?

Thanks in advance. Don't mean to be a pest but I'm gonna have lots of questions.

[Timothy Keith-Lucas]

You are not a pest. Let me see if I can comment, being a Series II (1962) owner and beginner restorer. 

 

Your goal is a seal between the various parts behind the carb such that the engine vacuum does not suck air, thereby leaning your mixture. Do whatever you need to achieve that. Yes, two O rings do not face each other.

 

You've got two opportunities for fans on a Series II, one on either side of the radiator. The front fan is electric and mounts on those fingers. The other mounts on the front of the engine. Being in Florida and dealing with a car designed for England I used both, plus adding an oil cooler. I don't recommend modifying the mount for the electric fan - the space available is pretty tight as is. Just as important is putting a baffle between the top of the radiator and the under side of the snout. That assures that all the ram air goes through the radiator rather than around it. I used closed cell foam from an Amazon box for this task. Then, flush the cooling system really well and add both coolant and a wetting agent such as this stuff from Amazon. 

https://www.amazon.com/Hy-Lube-HPC100-3PK-Performance-Fluid_Ounces/dp/B07F13298S/ref=sr_1_6?crid=Y5Z5FXFFYLPS&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.KUJvx1JhLbhPP46nMzu3GP3W_14-HWKRC1rJFXmHhg9-B2xJUIRdJgDibAJQyyaHu-_ToM68xLySWeiYO4BCYDo41-4L-pl13ZqZzNvP-_tm1TBNoOdWw3ygdTLCzwYXiRbReWrLmHx6qTHseZdUpeN_oP3D3zhoX84MEgMR8B3Y7XgiLonAmRTsQdV1gqfTNjsyv0QcETg0KCUX6FcIPK--QLTh2NlymjcWCaCh9XL1MCDp-7plCvr0b-pUkY9JHfVuFltUIDegHh2m4R9Q1G6oBq-60GNH26eT496GKAo.n-GBcM01D9511fwKI06Ovv4Ql_8vmt2eq6zF-L2d4EQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=automotive%2Bwetting%2Bagent&qid=1786190617&sprefix=automotive%2Bwetting%2Bagent%2Caps%2C254&sr=8-6&th=1

 

Do all that and you should not have cooling problems. 

 

For matching paint I recommend that you find an automotive paint shop that owns a spectrophotometer. This device takes multiple readings from a sample of your existing paint, averages them, and with the help of software spits out the correct paint mixture. That's far more accurate than matching chips with paint samples.

 

Welcome to the world of messing with Sevens. They will keep your brain active with endless challenges.

[SENC]

Post some pictures of what you have and you may get more definitive guidance, but it sounds like you are describing the misab plates many use on Elans.  Do a search for misab on lotuselan.net and you'll find plenty of posts from folks who swear by them and plenty by folks who swear at them.

 

Here is a link to a post in my rebuild thread where I started rebuilding my carbs.  Might be a point of comparison as you're looking at your manifold.  

 

I sourced some viton rings of the right dimension, as the misab plates I had didn't seem to fit correctly the groove in my manifold.  As you stated, I believe the misab plates were designed to fit between to flat surfaces.

 

As to the fan mount, since it is a new chassis it probably isn't sacrilegious to remove them... but if some later owner wants to go back to original they'll curse you anyway.  For what it is worth, I found an original style fan blade and, eventually, a motor and have had no problems keeping the engine cool (unless stuck in stop/start traffic on a 90° plus day, which I try to avoid).

 

For color matching, I'd suggest trying to sign up on se7ens.net.  That is the old listserv for Sevens enthusiasts.  It is now largely inactive/defunct, and getting signed up is wonky (or was a few years ago when I signed up).  But, if you can get in, you can search the old archives of messages and there is a lot of good stuff buried in there.  I think I saved some messages on colors in my files, will see if can find them and will post if I do.

[EdWills]

15 hours ago, Rodnok said:

Also, I'm ready to install a cooling fan and I'd like to have it as close to flush against the face of the radiator as I can get it. This is a new S2 chassis and it has the three sheet metal fingers that the original fan would mount to. Am I gonna go to hell if I cut them off to enable a better fit for the cooling fan? What do others do?

 

Hi @Rodnok.  I have seen a photo of a Lotus Seven Series 3 SS Twin Cam whereby the owner turned the electric fan motor around on the 3 sheet metal fingers so that the blades are much closer to the rad.  If you want them even closer, you could possibly add spacer tubes to the electric motor? 

 

Those 3 fingers have been part of the chassis throughout the Series 2 and 3 run, but I have seen them cut off which is a shame, as they do give some originality to the car.

 

And, as usual, great advice from @SENC and @Timothy Keith-Lucas  

 

If your chassis unit has the frame painted with middle graphite grey, which Arch seems to be using now on many of their rebuilds, I have the chemistry from Dulux, as I sent them a sample bracket from my 1969 Series 3, and they did a colour match.  I recently had 6 rattle cans produced with satin finish oil paint in 'Lotus Graphite Grey' from a local paint supplier to the oil and gas industry.

 

Good luck with your build.  W.

[Rodnok]

8 hours ago, Timothy Keith-Lucas said:

You are not a pest. Let me see if I can comment, being a Series II (1962) owner and beginner restorer. 

 

Your goal is a seal between the various parts behind the carb such that the engine vacuum does not suck air, thereby leaning your mixture. Do whatever you need to achieve that. Yes, two O rings do not face each other.

 

You've got two opportunities for fans on a Series II, one on either side of the radiator. The front fan is electric and mounts on those fingers. The other mounts on the front of the engine. Being in Florida and dealing with a car designed for England I used both, plus adding an oil cooler. I don't recommend modifying the mount for the electric fan - the space available is pretty tight as is. Just as important is putting a baffle between the top of the radiator and the under side of the snout. That assures that all the ram air goes through the radiator rather than around it. I used closed cell foam from an Amazon box for this task. Then, flush the cooling system really well and add both coolant and a wetting agent such as this stuff from Amazon. 

https://www.amazon.com/Hy-Lube-HPC100-3PK-Performance-Fluid_Ounces/dp/B07F13298S/ref=sr_1_6?crid=Y5Z5FXFFYLPS&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.KUJvx1JhLbhPP46nMzu3GP3W_14-HWKRC1rJFXmHhg9-B2xJUIRdJgDibAJQyyaHu-_ToM68xLySWeiYO4BCYDo41-4L-pl13ZqZzNvP-_tm1TBNoOdWw3ygdTLCzwYXiRbReWrLmHx6qTHseZdUpeN_oP3D3zhoX84MEgMR8B3Y7XgiLonAmRTsQdV1gqfTNjsyv0QcETg0KCUX6FcIPK--QLTh2NlymjcWCaCh9XL1MCDp-7plCvr0b-pUkY9JHfVuFltUIDegHh2m4R9Q1G6oBq-60GNH26eT496GKAo.n-GBcM01D9511fwKI06Ovv4Ql_8vmt2eq6zF-L2d4EQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=automotive%2Bwetting%2Bagent&qid=1786190617&sprefix=automotive%2Bwetting%2Bagent%2Caps%2C254&sr=8-6&th=1

 

Do all that and you should not have cooling problems. 

 

For matching paint I recommend that you find an automotive paint shop that owns a spectrophotometer. This device takes multiple readings from a sample of your existing paint, averages them, and with the help of software spits out the correct paint mixture. That's far more accurate than matching chips with paint samples.

 

Welcome to the world of messing with Sevens. They will keep your brain active with endless challenges.

 

[Rodnok]

[Rodnok]

Somehow I got lost in the reply process. I'll need to go back and study how to post. In any case I've included a photo of a mount bolt with torque limiting cushion, the spacer with O rings on both faces and the O ring from the intake manifold.  The O rings from the spacer and manifold will conflict or perhaps merge with each other. This makes no sense to me. I'm thinking I should just omit the spacer as the carbs should seal well with the existing O-rings and the compression grommets on the mounting bolts will prevent over tightening and distortion of the carbs, but I'm definitely open to alternative suggestions.

 

I live in Arizona where the temp has been over 100 every day for the last 2 weeks. Cooling is going to be crucial. I don't have a water pump mounted fan or an original type electric fan but do have a 10 inch Spal radiator mount type fan. it is a pusher but can't be fitted without modifications to the old fan mounts. It does appear that I will be able to fit a 10 inch Spal puller type fan behind the radiator, enabling me to retain the original mounts in front of the rad so as to avoid incurring the wrath of purists. 

Thank you Timothy Keith-Lucas, SENC and Ed Wills. I really appreciate your input 

[7Westfield]

I think you're stuck with the single o-ring setup, since you have the grooves in the manifold

Hopefully you got 8 of the grommet sets-use 2 on each bolt

instructions with mine said tighten them so there's about a mm between the washers

 

puller fans are better, in my experience    mount it against the rad, and seal around the perimeter of the rad to the nose as well as you can 

 a pusher fan turned around is not as effective as one designed to pull

I have the fan switch in the lower hose, controlling the fan thru a relay with always hot power-fan runs maybe 5 minutes after shutdown

if your sensor is in the engine, use switched power

[IamScotticus]

Without knowing what engine you are running,

The S2s if Ford, were a pre- Crossflow variety, with dual DCOE above the exhaust manifold and incorporting a swirl pot and not running a thermostat but a restrictor.   To assist in cooling, you could change to the smaller diameter steel billet lower crankshaft pulley available from Burton, maybe from Pegasus.  This will slow down the coolant flow which gets more dwell time heat conduction, give a small gain in performance, and not grenade.  I have heard good things about RedLine Watter Wetter.

 

With carbs, heat soak and vapor lock is often a problem.  If they ate above the exhaust,  a heat shield  under the carbs is popular.  If using a mechanical peel pump, use an insulating spacer.  If you want to go through the trouble,  having a non-passive pump on a timer that draws fuel through the carb supply and into the tank for a few minutes after shutdown will help with heat soak.

Realize today's fuels made for injection evaporate more easily than the fuel these carbs were designed to run with.  A good quality of today's fuel is it doesn't varnish as badly. 

Edited Sunday at 01:48 AM by IamScotticus

[SENC]

Agree, don't use both - use the o-rings if they fit properly in the manifold.  I'd also recommend some ez turn fuel lube on the o-ring, as well as on the idle air mixture screws, as these are areas prone to air leaks.

 

The mounting bolt you have is a more modern replacement for the thackery washers.  The advice I' e always been given is to use these for the top 2 bolts but thackerys for the bottom 2 (over time the rubber deteriorates more on the lower bolts).  Whichever washer solution you go with, you'll want to make sure you get the spacing to spec and even all around the mount, which can be a little tricky as getting to the bolts and nuts on the bottom is fiddly.  The manual will give you the specs, but suffice it to say you don't want the brass washers touching each other.  Also consider specialty jet nuts as they downsize the wrench required which is helpful.

[7Westfield]

Pegasus doesn't have v-belt pulleys   theirs are for cog belts, so you have to change both pulleys

    and then you have an alternator problem...........and they are a serious underdrive--to much for a street car

 

on any of the Fords, pre or crossflow, the factory fuel pump spacer is mandatory--it positions the pump lever correctly on the cam, and insulates it

[Rodnok]

7Westfield, I do have 8 of the spacers, so I'll need 8 more if I'm to use 2 per bolt. I'm going to follow SENC's advise and get Thackerys for the bottom bolts. The puller fan has been ordered and I have templates for upper and lower radiator baffles. I planned on using a temperature switch but am unsure as to location and am curious as to how you put yours in the lower hose, (alloy tubing splice with boss)?

 

IamScotticus, I have a pre-xflow, I have the swirl pot but am unfamiliar with the restrictor. I like the idea of the watter wetter and will look into that. The carb heat shields are in place and my fuel pump has about a 1/4 inch spacer, is this correct?

 

SENC, I'm taking your advice and going with the thackerys for the bottom bolts and just placed an order for the jet nuts. 

Thank you all so much for your help, I'm beginning to see a little light at the end of the tunnel. Now about the wiring...

[SENC]

I'd forgotten that I originally tried using the misab plates, but this picture gives an idea of the rubber/brass washer system installed.

 

 

I had some air leaks here that I determined resulted from a less than ideal fit of the embedded o-rings and the manifold groove.  I replaced them with viton o-rings and have been good since.  You can also see the jet nuts - those allowed me to get to them with a small socket and flexible extension.  Otherwise you're stuck using wrenches on both bolt and nut and doing the job in small 1/8-ish turn increments.  Ideally, you'd use feeler gauges to check the gap between carb and manifold all the way around, but that is much easier said than done.  One strategy to getting the surfaces parallel is to tighten all the way (brass grommets touching, Thackeray washers closed) then back off an equal amount on each.

 

Re the radiator, if you look at the last page in the thread I posted above, you'll find some pictures posted by @Stevensonjr, who I think is in AZ, that show his radiator setup (without the original mounts).  In my area, freezing is rarely a concern, and I don't drive it or have it outside when it is super cold, so traditional antifreeze is not needed - and straight water is a better coolant than a mix with antifreeze.  Of course, straight water doesn't offer some of the anti-corrosion benefits.  NoRosion/HyperKuhl may be something you want to consider.

[7Westfield]

EDIT previous post    only one spacer/cushion per bolt, as in SENC's photo

you got 8, so you're good     duh

 

I welded a bung into the side of a 90 degree bend in my lower hose, but one of those splice things would do fine

I can get a pic later if you want

did it 30 years ago, so don't recall where bung came from, but it's an early VW Rabbit switch

just have see what sensor will fit your particular bung

 

that's the right fuel pump block

[7Westfield]

fun fact about the mechanical fuel pumps on these

if you remove the pump, be sure when re-installing that it sits square with the block before you tighten it down

if one side doesn't go all the way down, try again  it means the lever is not on the cam lobe, but off to the side

DON'T use the nuts to pull it down    bad things happen if you force it

 

if the pump has a cast top section with the brass nipples in it, those must be replaced with threaded fittings--at least on the output side

they have a habit of popping out and spraying fuel everywhere

it happened on a friend's FF    H*** of a mess when it lit off

same for the inlet on a DGV

SCCA mandated that YEARS ago

[IamScotticus]

19 hours ago, Rodnok said:

Thackerys

Thackeray.

We wouldn't want you to get any of those counterfeit Thackerys.

Not as good a Thackerays.

Edited Sunday at 11:29 PM by IamScotticus

[IamScotticus]

21 hours ago, 7Westfield said:

and they are a serious underdrive--to much for a street car

Are you referring to the cog pulley or the reduced steel V  belt? Or both? I can see underdrive being a charging problem. 

[Rodnok]

15 hours ago, 7Westfield said:

EDIT previous post    only one spacer/cushion per bolt, as in SENC's photo

you got 8, so you're good     duh

Whew, thanks for the update. I was trying to figure out how to pack all that hardware in a very limited space.

[Rodnok]

4 hours ago, IamScotticus said:

We wouldn't want you to get any of those counterfeit Thackerys.

Not as good a Thackerays.

Oops, well one might think that after seven plus decades on the planet, working on cars, motorcycles, airplanes and all kinds of mean nasty stuff that I might be familiar with thackarays, but in fact I am not. Apparently. neither is spell check...Thanks for setting me straight.

[Rodnok]

15 hours ago, SENC said:

Re the radiator, if you look at the last page in the thread I posted above, you'll find some pictures posted by @Stevensonjr, who I think is in AZ, that show his radiator setup (without the original mounts).

Love that radiator installation, super clean and easily accessed. Thanks for the carb photo, it's a big help and I'm loving the brass supports for the throttle linkage.