Alternate Class for Sevens

[DaveD]

Wow! What a thead.

But it sounds like :deadhorse:

Has anyone considered a time handicap class system? They had something called PAX when I last ran in 2005. But it sounded like a car based handicap and was not broken up into classes. I was thinking more of a time based handicap, like bracket racing in drag racing

 

(drag racing tracks are always straight and the same length, autox courses are not)

 

, but your handicap would be calculated and averaged everytime you ran instead of you picking it. It would need to be based on the driver/car combination (with the car in a specified configuration). You would have to establish a handicap time to run the car in different brackets base on the configuration. eg. street tires vs. race tires. If the times were broken down fine enough say 1-2 second increments, then everyone would be competing with other competitors that average very close times to what you run. I think this would give everyone a chance to win every now and then. As you get faster you would move up into faster time classes leaving those others behind in the slower time classes to still be able to complete in those classes.

 

Under this arrangement you get to have fun (which is why I autox) and also get to have a chance of doing well each time you run. I ran a few of those autox's in 05 where I was the only car running. In a time based class I would have always had other cars to run against. To me that would be more fun than watching my class competitor blow my time away while he runs a time that is only a couple tenths of a second off of FTD or me doing the same to someone else. Which both happened a couple of times to me in 2005.

 

Dave D.

[TSuppa]

FWIW:

 

 

 

First: This thread was created to discuss, in a Sevens site, what options we may have in Autocrossing with the SCCA. The current classing structure is not all that friendly to the basic Seven. It seems to be headed to custom built one ofs.

 

 

 

Second: DM is a Modified class. The rules keep changing to accomodate those that wish to build their own car to their own specifications without regard to any standard. That's fine if that is what you want to do. It is a modified class. This is the class for Locost and other one-ofs.

 

 

 

Third: Many of us do not feel we have modified cars and would like the opportunity to run in another class. That is what we are trying to accomplish.

 

 

 

I think there are enough of us that autocross. But how many of you would show up at Nationals is another question. Maybe we should find out before we have an exercise in futility.

 

 

 

When I look at the low number of people participating in this thread it, I wonder. It doesn't seem to be very well represented. More comments may lead to a better representation of ideas.

 

 

 

I am printing all of the comments to this thread for reference. As soon as I get the time I will begin to combine the ideas into a suggestion for further discussion.

 

I actually live 20 minutes from the Lincoln AirPark (nationals site). I own a Locost and would not consider running in the nationals. I consider my car a very stock 7. 150hp, street tires etc..... Even "local" events here are becoming less attractive for stockish 7's due to the problems listed in previous posts. The highly modified 7's show up at even local events, probably because of the venue. When possible I show up for local events, with no illusions about being competative. It would be nice to compete in a class where my car had a chance of being competative with a good driver(not me.:blush:)

[pi7ot]

I don't autox my Birkin due to the classing.

My 125hp road legal, road tyred car against a gutted, 10" wide wheeled 250hp machine on slicks? I reckon not.

I also ran into a similar problem with the Midwest Council of sports car clubs and their High speed autox. My Birkin was classed in superstock with Vettes, Gt3 Porsches, while the Caterham was classed in A stock with Mustangs and M3 E46 vintage.

 

I use it for HPDEs with the Lotus Club and use an E30 M3 for BMW events as they don't allow open top cars to participate..

 

 

m

[Tedzilla]

This thread is kind of like listening to somebody complaining about showing up with a pogo stick for a hockey game and not being able to compete because of the bad rules...:nopity:

In racing you build the car to the rules and use the best parts if you want a chance of winning or you drive for fun.

[DeanG]

Entered my 1958 Seven in the local SCCA auto-x last weekend. I entered it in CS street tire. Even if I were a good driver there isn't much chance of placing high. I figure if I can be 10 to 12 seconds slower than FTD on a 30-40 second course I am doing well.

 

Dealing with the SCCA is about the most political thing most car enthuasiasts ever do. They seem to hate dealing with Lotus cars. They are too few cars and too many poorly documented varients and too fast. Also Lotus doesn't seem to support them. On the other hand they love Porsche with their Germanic mania for standardization and documentation coupled with their support of the club.

[Mondo]

I've raced motorcycles & bicycles.. got the serious competitor bug out of my system a while back (too intense & too much $$$ for me).

I've only done a couple track days so far, but for me it's just seeing how fast I can get my car around. Don't really care about the rules, just want to drive fast! As far as auto-x, everyone sees your time anyway... that's all that really matters (as some can be glad your not in their class).

Guess if I was really good, it might make a difference... though that gets back to Tedzilla's comments. Just about every type of racing's organization has ticky-tacky rules that don't seem right (for some). It's sadly part of any "race experience" and if you want to win you have to know the rules inside-out.

 

 

,

[speedwagon]

there are really very few true sevens and very hard to classify. Most racing organizations are good old boy, life is not fair, I personally have never went to the starting line when i didn't think that i had an unfair advantage,(sometimes i was confused). I have access to open roads without traffic that can be played on, but would consider track day or autocross just for fun and to run against my own time. What is really unfair that these wonderful cars are wasted on old folks, if only i could have had one when 30 maybe it would have been used to it's full potential. doubt that i will live long enough to learn how to press this car. I f you are going to compete; pick a class and build to that class, otherwise be happy running with the big boys who do. life is a trip the destination is not the goal. was thinking about Yellowstone trip but am still learning car, just discovered that the metering pump was disabled and it should have been on premix- the pitfalls of buying rather than building. john canning- Ticaboo, ut

[pi7ot]

This thread is kind of like listening to somebody complaining about showing up with a pogo stick for a hockey game and not being able to compete because of the bad rules...:nopity:

In racing you build the car to the rules and use the best parts if you want a chance of winning or you drive for fun.

 

You're missing the plot.

This is not racing.

It is supposed to be an affordable entry level activity using an automobile.

Not everyone is willing to modify their 7 into a Non streetable trailer queen.

Not everyone can be bothered to spend Thousands of dollars for three track(sorry, parking lot) sessions that last 90-130 seconds each.

 

 

m

[DeanG]

...Not everyone can be bothered to spend Thousands of dollars for three track(sorry, parking lot) sessions that last 90-130 seconds each.

 

More like 30-40 seconds at many venues. At my previous auto-x I believe that I was the slowest or slowest non-novice. I had 44 - 47 second runs. The FTD was in the 32 - 33 second range.

[The Stig]

Sprint and Hillclimb classes in the UK do in fact take account of Sevens, Caterhams, Westfields etc and the classes work out pretty fairly in most cases allowing stock road Sevens ample opportunity to be competitive in varying weather conditions - the less modified cars do better in the rain!

 

The classes for the majority of the events are this and there are 5 highlighted classes exclusively for Sevens and similar cars:

A1. Road going Series Production Cars up to 1400cc

A2. Road going Series Production Cars over 1400cc and up to 1800cc

A3. Road going Series Production Cars over 1800cc and up to 2600cc

A4. Road going Series Production Cars over 2600cc

B1. Road going Specialist Production Cars. Car engines up to 1400cc & M/c engines up to 875cc.

B2. Road going Specialist Production Cars. Car engines over 1400cc up to 1800cc & M/c engines up to 1125cc.

B3. Road going Specialist Production Cars. Car engines over 1800cc and M/c Engines over 1125cc.

C1. Modified Limited Production Cars up to 1400cc

C2. Modified Limited Production Cars over 1400cc up to 1800cc

C3. Modified Limited Production Cars over 1800cc up to 2600cc

C4 Modified Limited Production Cars over 2600cc

C5 Modified Specialist Production Cars. Car engines up to 1800cc & M/c engines up to 1125cc

C6. Modified Specialist Production Cars. Car engines over 1800cc & M/c engines over 1125cc.

D1. Sports Libre Cars up to 1800cc

D2. Sports Libre Cars over 1800cc

D3 Rally Cars up to 1600cc

D4. Rally Cars over 1600cc

E1. Racing cars up to 1100cc

E2. Racing cars over 1100cc and up to 1600cc

E3. Racing Cars over 1600cc up to 2000cc

E4. Racing Cars over 2000cc

 

The primary difference in the Road Going and Modified classes is that Rioad Going must be road legal on street tyres and Modified is generally slicks and wings. In 9 years of competition in these classes, I have never known any particular issues.

 

Maybe the SCCA should look further afield for inspiration. Sevens make great Autocross cars and diversity dhould be encouraged.

 

BTW. I figured out once that minute for minute Sprint/Autocross events cost more than running a car at Le Mans!

 

[Tedzilla]

You're missing the plot.

This is not racing.

It is supposed to be an affordable entry level activity using an automobile.

Not everyone is willing to modify their 7 into a Non streetable trailer queen.

Not everyone can be bothered to spend Thousands of dollars for three track(sorry, parking lot) sessions that last 90-130 seconds each.

 

 

m

No, you've missed it...

You want to be classed so you have a chance of winning. If you want to win, it's competition. Timed automotive competition is racing.

If you're not willing to do what it takes to win, enjoy losing or at least lose quietly.

The yearly tire bill of serious local autocrosser is often in the thousands and that's just the tip of the iceberg of car prep. Multiply these expenses if you're doing track events. For a winning effort there's considerable time and travel expense. A person who runs 5-10 times a year can't reasonably expect to compete with drivers running 30-50 times a year.

You must also take a hard look at yourself... even if you do the work, spend the time, spend the money and take the lessons you still most likely won't win.

Some clubs give participation awards and if that's what you want you should join that sort of club rather than complaining about competitive clubs.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Tedzilla

[DeanG]

No, you've missed it...

 

Actually I think you missed it. Auto-x has lost some of its appeal as it no longer is a grass roots sport. Sure it is supposed to be competitive but... Local auto-x now seems to be practice for national events. National level preparation (or regional level preparation) at local events seems wrong. It certainly discourages beginners and mid level competitors. Maybe local events need to class the national and regional level cars/drivers in a separate handicapped category. If they were true sportsmen rather than trophy hounds they could run for fun and not be scored at local events.

 

Two stories.

 

One of my friends gave up competitive pistol shooting when he went to the the Virginia state championships one year. He had the top score through most of the 2 day event. When the USMC national shooting team showed up he quickly fell down the ranking. He now refuses to shoot against professionals, especially those who are paid with his tax dollars.

 

At the other extreme one acquaintance of mine used to dominate the model airplane control line event - Carrier. He would often go to contests in order to practice and refuse to be scored, instead he would perform demonstrations.

[Tedzilla]

For every lap I drive on the track in competition I teach 40+ laps for SCCA. For every Autocross run I make I instruct 5-10 runs for the other clubs I run with. I put time and effort into my driving and help others do the same. I put time and effort into my cars and don't mind sharing. These are more productive ways to advance motorsports than whining about the injustices of every sanctioning body's racing rules to your personal situation/equipment.

I have no sympathy for those who want to win without doing what it takes to win. I am occasionally irritated when a mediocre driver in a very fast car beats me, but I'll bet they're way more irritated when I beat them. I honestly admire those who can beat me with comparable equipment. I read the rules, look at my discretionary funds and do my best.

If I'm hopelessly over-matched I select a car/driver combination not too much better and focus on beating them. If I beat them I raise the bar, if I lose I keep working on it.

Competition is not about how you want to feel. You've got to do what it takes if you want to earn a win. If driving with serious competitors is too much for you, drive around in your backyard then go to Staples and buy yourself a trophy.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Tedzilla

[Kitcat]

I learned many things in my stint as an auto-X-er. I learned car control and vehicle dynamics. On some curves I learned I didn't have to apply the brakes to slow, just turning the steering wheel was enough. I learned the gas pedal was not an off-on switch, it would produce better results when modulated. I learned the car would go where I looked and I learned to look ahead, way ahead.

 

I also learned humility. In 10 years, I won one auto-x, tho I was usually in the top 1/3 in my class. I had no talent, tho practice made me better than the average driver.

 

I did have friends who had talent. They learned that other drivers in our stock class would buy 10 versions of a critical part and test them looking to see what part had a 1/2 hp advantage. Times as many parts as they thot wld make a difference. They learned that since shock absorbers were allowed to be re-valved, they could be jiggered to stay 1/2 compressed for the 30" run and then slowly return to normal height by "tech". This effectively lowered the car's ride height, which was otherwise illegal. Stock engines spent many hours on dynos looking for a coupla ponies that the scrutineers wouldn't realize were illegally gained. They bought high-end Hoosiers good for a few runs, towed to events, tested in the off season, etc., etc. Cheating was rampant, or at least believed to be rampant (made a convenient excuse for being creamed by another competitor).

 

Typically people, like me, got the auto-X bug, went nuts for a while, had a ton of fun (I know I did at least) and finally grew tired of being beaten by drivers with more talent, $, and or commitment and moved on. When I look at the local folks dedicated to racing auto-x, there are almost no old timers. Virtually everyone has gone on to other things. I don't consider that an indictment, I learned car skills, made great friends and spent too much money.

 

But anyone one getting in has to know that to be a top driver in auto-x takes amazing and non-stop effort. For some its worth it. One of the local guys who started when I did (Jason Saini-in '93) was a garage rat. He worked at a local tire shop as a gofor. When I bought sticky Hoosiers, he heat cycled them on the street for me as part of his duties. He ultimately became a national SCCA auto X champ in a Honda S2000. He lived breathed and slept auto-x. Now he's paid to road race. But for the rest of us, we have to find things about auto-x we love, besides winning.

 

Mike M.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Kitcat

[Boxologist]

For every lap I drive on the track in competition I teach 40+ laps for SCCA. For every Autocross run I make I instruct 5-10 runs for the other clubs I run with. I put time and effort into my driving and help others do the same. I put time and effort into my cars and don't mind sharing. These are more productive ways to advance motorsports than whining about the injustices of every sanctioning body's racing rules to your personal situation/equipment.

I have no sympathy for those who want to win without doing what it takes to win. I am occasionally irritated when a mediocre driver in a very fast car beats me, but I'll bet they're way more irritated when I beat them. I honestly admire those who can beat me with comparable equipment. I read the rules, look at my discretionary funds and do my best.

If I'm hopelessly over-matched I select a car/driver combination not too much better and focus on beating them. If I beat them I raise the bar, if I lose I keep working on it.

Competition is not about how you want to feel. You've got to do what it takes if you want to earn a win. If driving with serious competitors is too much for you, drive around in your backyard then go to Staples and buy yourself a trophy.

 

+1 internetz for u.

 

There are many different clubs to autoX with in your area if your lucky. I think I am since I have 2 SCCA , 2 BMWCCA. 2 PCA and 1 NASA region within a 1/2 hour drive in the morning. Plus a couple of other local unaffiliated other clubs.

 

So you go to an autoX. You woke up early on a weekend. You won't be home til the late afternoon. If you live close by to a site and you are not one of the volunteers that help an event run. Otherwise you do not live near the site or are one of the volunteers which the event depends on to run. Then you wake up a o'dark:30 and will be home late.

 

So why did you go? To have fun. Did you enjoy driving your car hard? did you like the people there? Did you earn a $2-5 dollar trophy that not autoX people will think is crap? if 2 of 3 are answered NO, then your not coming back. It's a waste of your time. Even a single NO is enough for people to go do something else on a nice weekend day.

 

Do you enjoy driving your car hard? If you don't then maybe you do car shows or you consider a car to be in the same league as a disher washer or air conditioner.

 

Do you like the people there? This is make or break for the day for most people. Someone at an autoX spends most of the day not driving. Can you enjoy yourself? If not, road racing and HPDEs are what coming your way hopefully. But the people who stick around autoXs for any length of time have a competetive streak in them. So they will drive hard, and want to drive faster than YOU.

 

Trophy time. Do you really need a class to win a trophy to make the day worthwile.

 

 

That's the crux of on whether a person will come back to another autoX. If you like autoXing, you'll autoX nearly anything. The rules arguement I find to be BS. Either someone has prepped there car to what they want so it's fun for them, or they will prep the car to the rules.