How to approach an overhaul

[leeper]

Hey guys, how would you approach an overhaul (on a limited budget)?

 

I have a pretty good idea of where I want my car to be when I'm done but I'll need to do it in stages and don't want to do things twice, or out of sequence if that makes sense.

 

Here is what I'm starting with, and the destination is to replace the drive train with a Honda F20A (S2K) and from the LSD on out with Subie STI.

 

I've emailed with Brian at WCM and he has been great at giving me advice on what parts to use for my application. Since I can't do this all at once (and maintain my marriage), I'm trying to figure out how to stage it into phases that make sense. If I start with engine and transmission, I'll obviously destroy the drive shaft, differential and axles as they were never designed to take that much power. So it would make more sense to me to start with the LSD and rebuild the rear end first but then there is the hang up of having to make a custom drive shaft made that will have to be done again when I do the engine.

 

Any sage advice? Voices of experience?

[Jon W.]

Some random thoughts:

1. Don't do it in stages. You'll just make more work for yourself and spend more money.

2. Do you know if the drivetrain will fit in frame and under the hood? How much frame modification is required?

3. Don't underestimate amount of rework to swap engines, wiring harness, cooling sys, frame mods, reskinning, etc.

4. Sell nosecone to finance entire project with leftover $. Only half kidding. The nosecone is worth over $2500 to replicate.

5. What's the value of the existing drivetrain? Sell to finance project.

[leeper]

Thanks for the thoughts

 

Some random answers:

1. More work is a given but I disagree on the money. Though I've never been through a divorce, I have seen what they do to a financial portfolio.

2. Actually I don't but that is part of my reason for wanting to start with the LSD.

3. This is probably the biggest reason that I want to do this in phases. Everything currently works (well, almost...) and prior to changing out the engine, I would upgraded the cooling system to a proven method (for this application) and so on.

4. not going to happen... kinda like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

5. I have no idea but I figured that would finance the frame modifications and engine enhancements (ecu, dry sump, induction, etc)

Edited May 29, 2010 by leeper

[powderbrake]

I have an Ultralite with a Honda S2000 engine, and while I love it, and it's power, it seems a shame to replace the drive train which you have. Here are some reasons;

 

1) Your car is magnificent and rather unique. The air intake screen on the side of the bonnet is beautiful, and would possibly be lost in the rebuild. That fantastic nose may also be lost.

 

2) The Honda engine is likely much taller than the Lotus Ford, and will probably require a new bonnet, destroying the looks of the car. The reason the Ultralite has a bulged hood is to clear the engine. Before you decide to lay the Honda over to the side for clearance, you may have oil circulation issues and may require a dry sump. At max rpm the Honda pumps an absolutely unbelieveable amount of oil to shift the cams.

 

3) I understand the Honda gearbox is quite a bit larger than the Ford, and may require your moving frame members.

 

4) The Subaru differential mounts to the frame, and all the suspension points are simple tie rods with spherical ball ends on the Ultralite. ( 5 each side) To create a complete suspension system in the Doonk, you will be doing some serious cutting and welding.

 

5) The drive shaft is the least of the issues which you will face.

 

General suggestions:

1) I assume you want the Honda to go faster. Consider replacing the current engine/trans/diff with components that will directly fit and spend the money on power adders for the engine or one of a similar type.

 

2) Before you get into this MAJOR rebuild of the car, consider selling it and getting an Ultralite.

 

3) The Sevens experience is more than sheer acceleration and speed. You have a beautiful car. Drive it as is, enjoy the experience, and modify with the current drivetrain type, at the rate you can afford.

 

4) Before you jump into a Honda engine conversion, contact the guys who REALLY, REALLY know them here on the usa7s forum, i.e. WestTexasS2K, RDROCKT, and 7evin.

 

5) If you can locate a Honda engine/trans at a salvage yard, measure it up, for height, width, length etc., so you don't start a project that may not end on a positive note.

 

If I seem negative, it's because what you are proposing is a really tough job, and what you are starting with is so unique. Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck.

[MHKflyer52]

Hey guys, how would you approach an overhaul (on a limited budget)?

 

I have a pretty good idea of where I want my car to be when I'm done but I'll need to do it in stages and don't want to do things twice, or out of sequence if that makes sense.

 

Here is what I'm starting with, and the destination is to replace the drive train with a Honda F20A (S2K) and from the LSD on out with Subie STI.

 

I've emailed with Brian at WCM and he has been great at giving me advice on what parts to use for my application. Since I can't do this all at once (and maintain my marriage), I'm trying to figure out how to stage it into phases that make sense. If I start with engine and transmission, I'll obviously destroy the drive shaft, differential and axles as they were never designed to take that much power. So it would make more sense to me to start with the LSD and rebuild the rear end first but then there is the hang up of having to make a custom drive shaft made that will have to be done again when I do the engine.

 

Any sage advice? Voices of experience?

 

LEEPER,

JUST DON'T DO IT YOU WILL RUIN A VERY BEATUFULL CAR AND YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY WITH THE END RESULT DO TO THE LOSS OF VALUE YOUR Donkervoort HAS NOW.

 

I have an Ultralite with a Honda S2000 engine, and while I love it, and it's power, it seems a shame to replace the drive train which you have. Here are some reasons;

 

1) Your car is magnificent and rather unique. The air intake screen on the side of the bonnet is beautiful, and would possibly be lost in the rebuild. That fantastic nose may also be lost.

 

2) The Honda engine is likely much taller than the Lotus Ford, and will probably require a new bonnet, destroying the looks of the car. The reason the Ultralite has a bulged hood is to clear the engine. Before you decide to lay the Honda over to the side for clearance, you may have oil circulation issues and may require a dry sump. At max rpm the Honda pumps an absolutely unbelieveable amount of oil to shift the cams.

 

3) I understand the Honda gearbox is quite a bit larger than the Ford, and may require your moving frame members.

 

4) The Subaru differential mounts to the frame, and all the suspension points are simple tie rods with spherical ball ends on the Ultralite. ( 5 each side) To create a complete suspension system in the Doonk, you will be doing some serious cutting and welding.

 

5) The drive shaft is the least of the issues which you will face.

 

General suggestions:

1) I assume you want the Honda to go faster. Consider replacing the current engine/trans/diff with components that will directly fit and spend the money on power adders for the engine or one of a similar type.

 

2) Before you get into this MAJOR rebuild of the car, consider selling it and getting an Ultralite.

 

3) The Sevens experience is more than sheer acceleration and speed. You have a beautiful car. Drive it as is, enjoy the experience, and modify with the current drivetrain type, at the rate you can afford.

 

4) Before you jump into a Honda engine conversion, contact the guys who REALLY, REALLY know them here on the usa7s forum, i.e. WestTexasS2K, RDROCKT, and 7evin.

 

5) If you can locate a Honda engine/trans at a salvage yard, measure it up, for height, width, length etc., so you don't start a project that may not end on a positive note.

 

If I seem negative, it's because what you are proposing is a really tough job, and what you are starting with is so unique. Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck.

 

I have to agree with Powerbrake and his Item 2 "Before you get into this MAJOR rebuild of the car, consider selling it and getting an Ultralite." I would say from my experance in building a 7 from scratch you will be doing the samething and loosing money by destroying a very nice and capable 7.

Sell your car and buy an Ultralite and don't kill a nice 7 by trying to stick an S2K in that car but that is just my belief.

[leeper]

I appreciate your opinions Jerry, I truly do. I have no intention of starting a project on a whim with a sawzall. I couldn't agree with you more about the beauty of the car in it's current condition but also understand that this is not the way that this car was sold originally. To say that the car has classic lines is an understatement but to imply that changing the engine, differential, etc. ruins the car is naive in that much of that has already been done.

90% of the engine has been replaced (the only original part left is the block)

If you take the original photos of the car and compare the car you see now, much more has been changed than I'm proposing.

The car itself is 27 years old, the engine/tranny is from '72-'73 (best guess from the manufacture) and the rest is is '62-'63 Cortina.

 

powderbrake - I appreciate all of the time you put into your response and believe it or not, I have put a lot of thought and research into the project.

 

responses in order

 

1 - the side draft carburetor setup is very cool and a solution will be found prior to starting the project. Even if (and that is an "if", I go with EFI, that does not mean that I can't pickup the air from that same location in the same manner).

 

2 - The F20A is a tall engine. The dry sump was already mentioned and there are other options. If done correctly the same type of custom aluminum work can be done to accommodate and look very pleasing.

 

3 - Unfortunately there really isn't away to address that until I get a look at the frame members and see what I'm willing to compromise.

 

4 - you definitely have got me here, I haven't a clue about what needs to be done to adapt and a big part of why I'm asking all of the questions.

 

5 - I disagree but will also admit that I'm a complete novice. My point though was more to the fact that I would have to do the same work twice.

 

Suggestions

 

1 - Actually the single biggest reason for the overhaul is to bring it up to date and ensure that it is drivable for generations to come. I can still find parts for a '62 Cortina (though I had to have a wheel bearing machined because they are not available anymore), but will my son be able to (or his son for that matter)? Second I view the F20A as an engineering marvel. The one true fault of the engine (lack of torque) suits the weight of the seven perfectly.

 

2 - I looked into the ultralite before making the purchase and the one thing that it lacked (for me) is that there is no "project" involved.

 

3 - I agree. If all that I was interested in was acceleration, but it's not.

 

4 - Please correct me if I'm wrong but Brian (the guy that I've been talking to about this) is the guy that built those folks ultralites.

 

5 - Actually I have one (an '03) sitting 5' from the Donkervoort.

 

Thank you for taking the time Jerry! You given me some excellent problems to work on before opening this can of worms. I hope that I can come back to you with the information that I find and see what you think.

 

Martin - You sound like the old guy across the street "Damn kids these days ruining everything".

Here's a thought, if you really want to help, how about asking questions like; "what are you trying to accomplish?", instead of increasing the font changing it to red and or bold. I don't mind criticism but if you can't be constructive, don't bother.

 

Respectfully,

Calvin

[MHKflyer52]

Martin - You sound like the old guy across the street "Damn kids these days ruining everything".

Here's a thought, if you really want to help, how about asking questions like; "what are you trying to accomplish?", instead of increasing the font changing it to red and or bold. I don't mind criticism but if you can't be constructive, don't bother.

 

Respectfully,

Calvin

 

Point taken Calvin.

I was harsh with my post so pardon my way of saying that I believe you have a very nice car that I think you would regret modifying to the S2K engine and drive train when the mod is completed.

Yes I should have not even commented and I am sorry.

I was over the top but you have a very nice 7 and I just do not believe it would be a beneficial upgrade but that is just my onion and we all know what opinions are good for.

Have fun and enjoy your 7 anyway that you like as you only have to be happy with your own choices and no one else’s.

You still have a very nice looking 7 the way it is and that is my belief and a heck of a lot better looking than mine and a lot of others that are out there.

Hope this makes since and I hope you will accept my apology for being over the top in my post.

[leeper]

No worries Martin!

 

OK, how about I try backing up a bit.

 

I have this incredible car and I want to be as good a steward while I own it as the three previous owners have been but I honestly don't believe I can do that (in it's current condition) and still enjoy the car. I have no intentions of tracking this car but I also refuse to turn it into a trailer queen!

 

I'm willing to pour money into this car knowing full well that there will be a zero financial return but I also want the next owner to be able to maintain the car without having to open a research project every time something breaks.

 

Case in point - The speedometer is broken and has been for years. This isn't the first time that it has been broken and you end up in quite a quandary when you look at ways of fixing it. The previous owner worked on this problem continually and really tried to maintain the aesthetics while bringing it up to date. I'm ready to drop $1500 in order to restore it to original because I believe that it is essential for the car.

Will the next guy be willing to do that? What can I do to bring the whole car up to date

and still maintain its integrity?

 

Cheers,

Calvin

[powderbrake]

Calvin:

I did not mean to imply that there was some necessity for keeping the car "original". With an Ultralite I am obviously someone who is not married to the original Lotus/Caterham concept. I can see from your replies that you are well into the project, and having the Honda drivetrain available makes the project planning a much more solid program.

 

If there is any info that I can supply on the Ultralite, which you may need to do your conversion, please just ask.

[leeper]

Nope, I haven't started anything other than planning and trying to understand what the viable options are. The S in the garage is in perfect condition and I have owned it since it had 342 miles on it. Knowing the history on it and the fact that it's paid off make it more interesting as a donor. Add to that, the value of it has dropped to a ridiculously low value and again, it becomes an interesting prospect. The value of the parts is now well over the car as a whole yet I still have a very hard time tearing a perfectly good car (2 for that matter) a part and if I do it myself the best guess is that I'd sell off all of the parts (extra) within three years.

 

I've spun this project from many angles and considered the following engines;

Duratec

F20A

Hartley H2

 

But no matter what I do with the engine, what do I replace all of the Cortina stuff with?

 

I've been asking the question but in hind sight, the people that I have been asking (for the most part) are starting from scratch and not necessarily trying to adapt a frame that has been constructed for a fairly specific setup.

[jbanker]

Leeper,

I first saw your car at LOG 25 in St. Louis in 2005. This car is a very rare find here in the USA.

 

I have to agree with the general feelings expressed ...DON'T DO THE MODS YOU ARE CONTEMPLATING. This car is way too valuable to start hacking away on it.

[leeper]

OK, I agree with you. I actually don't want to change the way that the car looks. While all of you have a lot more experience than I do, please try to see this from a different perspective.

 

Take a look at the attachments (sorry for the quality) and understand that this is the same car! Do you agree with the changes that the previous owners have made? I certainly do.

 

The statement that goes "you have a unique car, don't ruin it." Does the car become less unique as it changes? I reiterate, most of what I want to change is the unseen. I get that changing one thing leads to another and that there is a whole lot that I don't understand, that is why I'm asking for help. I actually want to make sure that the car is able to do future LOG events and is around for a long time.

 

So, I ask you all again (slightly different), how do I bring the car up to date?

[fastg]

I seriously considered this car, but I want all the latest and greatest. So I decided to let this great original car pass to an owner that would appreciate it for what is is, a great and very unique car. It's very sad it's going to be butchered. I understand these cars are not frozen in time, and the spirit of the cars is about change and individuality, but you can only go so far. You use the term "(the only original part left is the block)", and that is the way it should stay. Very sad, very sad.

[leeper]

If this keeps up I'm going to put 20" spinners on it and say that I got the advice from USA7's.

[scannon]

If this keeps up I'm going to put 20" spinners on it and say that I got the advice from USA7's.

Please post a picture of that, it will truly be "one of a kind".

[MHKflyer52]

If this keeps up I'm going to put 20" spinners on it and say that I got the advice from USA7's.

 

Now that is funny......20" Spinners......

 

Calvin,

 

Changing an engine and trans and rear diff if the same type is quite a large job. At least for me even in my car that I built from scratch and know every inch and weld and bracket and tube in it.

Changing to a completely different engine and drive train for me would be about the same as building another car from scratch. Especially if I were to change from the BMC (MGB) engine and trans and rear diff to a S2K engine and trans and a rear diff just because of the size differences.

If your set on making the changes to your car to make the S2K engine and trans and a rear diff fit and that will handle that setup then may I suggest that you make a mockup of your frame for the areas that will be effected (engine bay, trans tunnel, rear bulkhead aft to last tube in the frame) so that you can see just what new parts you will have to fabricate to fit your frame so that the engine and trans and diff will fit before you take your car apart. By doing this you will still be able to still enjoy driving your 7 during the fabrication of the many new parts you will need to make to fit your frame to the new engine setup and it will also show you if the S2K setup will even fit in your frame.

If you have a 3D solid model program such as SolidWorks then all this can be done on a computer and even provide you with drawings that will let you fab the new parts with ease and a lot less waste of time and metal and money and ensure that everything fits as it should.

Hope this sugestion helps.

[leeper]

Hope this sugestion helps.

 

It really does... Thanks Martin!

 

Regardless of what direction I end up going I'd really like to have some CAD drawings.

 

Thanks again.

[solder_guy]

I cannot comment on drivetrain .. but I see that your windshield wiper is in the same place that mine was. (cable and drive tube takes a 90 deg turn.)

 

I built an aluminum shelf on which to mount the wiper motor under the passenger side of the cowl and made that cable drive tube as straight as possible. Now my wipers have alot of pep!

 

Rob

[WestTexasS2K]

You know what really sucks. Spending an hour typing a reply and it wont post. Then wipes out the post.

[WestTexasS2K]

Ok here goes again.

I will make this shorter.

You have a nice unique car, but I can see and understand the allure of the S2k engine. I think of cars that I can stuff that motor into. I love it. That said here are some obstacles I see.

 

1. Engine height and lenght is considerably larger than current power plant. Alot of measuring before you start. You can lower engine a little with a dry sump or modified pan but only about1-1.5" max. The tranny bell housing then becomes to low.

2. fuel system. EFI internal or external fuel pump with a return fuel line. This may require a new or modified fuel cell.

3. Engine size will most likely warrant chassis changes especially where the dash bars go to the tranny. This is most likely to narrow for the six speed to fit.

You might can use existing tranny and just change engine but this will require custom adapter plate and clutch. Tranny may not hold power.

4.Electrical modification to wire the engine into the car. Most likely gauge changes I doubt the current tach goes to 9k. The speedo will have to be electrical type as well. Oh by the way you will have to run an external pick up signal for the aftermarket speedo to work. They dont like the Honda signal for some reason.

5. is the radiator going to cool higher horsepower engine

6. If you have to make chassis changes will the interior you currently have fit especially the seats.

7. Possible steering shaft changes

8. Hood will have to be modified most likely to clear.

9.IRS rear will require a rebuild of the car from the rear bulk head back. It will be hard to get the pickup points in the correct position to eliminate bump steer changes.

I would stay with the live axle and beef it up or change it to a unit that will hold the power. Since you say that you dont plan to track the car, the advantages of the IRS are negligable for the cost and work involved to convert IMO.

10. You will have to reskin at least one side of the car because exhaust will exit the other side. New header needed too.

11. Weight will be a few hundered pounds heavier that what you currently have.

12. Are the brakes up to the task of stopping a faster heavier car?

 

Other than these items go for it. Its your car do what you want. I am not a puriest so it wouldnt bug me to swap the motor if it is doable without destroying the character of the car. Plus I like having something different. I bet there isnt another Donker with a S2k engine in it.

 

PS Brian might have built the chassis on our cars, but he didnt build our cars. RDRKT, 7evin and I have made significant changes from the orignal configurations.